Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

Davina Frederick: Hi everyone
and welcome back to the wealthy

woman lawyer podcast. I'm your
host, Davina Frederick, and I'm

here today with Amanda DuBois.
Amanda is the founder of the

Dubois Law Group. And that's a
divorce law firm. In California.

No, in Seattle, you're in the
Seattle area, I apologize. I

started to saw California. And
her law firm has 20 employees,

it is largely women attorneys.
And she man is really

fascinating because I found out
about her because I found out

that she is an attorney who has
written a novel, a legal novel

and legal thriller. And so I am
reading that it's called the

complication. And I invited her
onto the show. And I found out

that she has built this amazing
law firm over the last 20 years,

and in the Seattle area. And
before that she was actually a

nurse. And she recently won a
very prestigious award for her

work, her nonprofit work on
something called the civil

survival projects. I'm eager to
talk with her about that. I know

you guys are gonna love her. And
love to hear all about Amanda

and her law firm. I've got lots
of questions. So welcome. And

I'm so glad you're here. Thank
you. So fun to be here. So why

don't you start out telling us
about your law firm and kind of

give us a sense of the size of
it? Who do you like to serve the

clients you'd like to serve? And
your team?

Unknown: Well, I have an update.
Newsflash, we have a new name.

Because Lucia lavas, just became
a full partner in the law firm.

And so now it's called Dubois,
Leviathan law groups. That's

pretty exciting. And what we're
really excited about is that she

represents I think it's 2% of
women, law partners who are

Latina, which is a statistic I
wasn't aware of. So I'm pretty

proud of that. I know, right? So
we're moving. We have a pretty

diverse group in our in our law
firm, and Lucia is now a

partner. So that or she's a
named partner, she was a partner

before, we have about now we've
got about 25 employees, we have,

I think, nine lawyers and a
bunch of staff, and sort of that

we got the admin staff, and then
we got the paralegal staff. And

then we've got sort of the
finance staff. And then we've

got these amazing lawyers, all
of whom I pretty much trained.

So because I was a nurse, and I
came from a medical, you know,

it's different in the medical
world, like you graduate from

medical school, and then you
become a intern, and then you

become a resident, and then you
launch. And I noticed when I was

young lawyer, there was no
internship and there was no

residency and it was kind of
scary, right? When you got out

and you were sort of thrown out
there. And I had all male, you

know, I worked, let's call them
the bad boys, I work for the bad

boys. And they weren't very
sympathetic to the plight of

the, you know, baby lawyer. And
so I sort of committed myself

that all of the lawyers would
come into our group are going to

be is pretty much sitting next
to me for about a year. And so

we really, really, really mentor
and train our new lawyers who

aren't always young, because,
you know, people coming out of

law school and all different
ages. But um, so I think that's

something I've noticed, you
know, sort of I do family law.

And I've noticed, you know, that
a lot of the newer lawyers don't

get the kind of mentoring and
training that they need. And

it's, well, it's an order of
business. First of all, it's

super scary, because you're
throwing somebody out there

doesn't know what they're doing.
But more importantly, you know,

for our clients, we want to make
sure that they get the very best

possible representation that
they can get. And by having

lawyers who have been heavily
mentored and trained, and then

we're all the time working as a
team for that very reason. So I

think, anyway, that's kind of
how I've grown it is we take one

or two, sort of new lawyers at a
time and train them up really

intensely.

Davina Frederick: I have a whole
lot of questions about this. So

I think this is fantastic that
you said that because I, I coach

women law firm owners and
growing their business, and one

of the big challenges they're
having is they're having hiring

challenges, but they're also
feeling like, you know, I invest

in the training of this person,
and then they, they leave. And I

think one of the challenges that
people have is maybe they're not

spending enough time training
and training closely enough and

working closely enough with them
to develop that relationship. So

they think they're training by
saying, here's how we do things

now go to it. And maybe there
maybe that's why they're losing

people. But have you had the
experience where you invest a

lot in training someone and then
they've left you shortly after

you they kind of pass their
their training period to go work

someplace else? And how do you
handle that?

Unknown: Well, only Yeah, we've
we've had people with this

family a lot, right? So either
you love it or you hate it. And

so it's not, you know, it's not
unusual for us to get somebody

in there who thinks they're
super enthusiastic and they

always want to be family. Oh
boy. They're, and then they're

dealing with people who are
falling apart and, you know,

losing their home and their
children. And it's really

emotional. And just circling
back to this nurse thing,

because I was a nurse before I
was a lawyer, I'm pretty

comfortable with people in
crisis, because that's pretty

much I was a labor and delivery
nurse. So you're dealing with

women in crisis every single
day. So I'm very comfortable

with that. And I'm pretty good
at mentoring, you know, my team

of how to be comfortable with
people who have a really hugely

emotional state, but it's not
for everybody. So I would say

that of the people that have
sort of come and gone, I don't,

I can't think of one who's gone
to another family law firm. I

can, you know, we've had some
that have just said, I'm gonna

go to estate planning, or I'm
gonna go be commercial litigate

like, they just want out of the
crazy emotional part of it. But

so yeah, they kind of figure
that out. And it becomes kind of

clear as you're going along,
like, they're, they're not, you

know, really related to the
clients as well and stuff. So,

yeah, we invest a lot in our
people. But that's kind of part

of the business model. Because I
figure a certain number of

people, you're gonna get in
there, they're not all going to

stay with the ones who it
clicks. And they find that

they're in the right place for
them. We've never had any of

those leads that I can when
moved to Texas. But other than

that, no.

Davina Frederick: Yeah, see
that? That is really interesting

that you said that, because I do
think that's where a lot of law

firm owners who struggle to grow
because they struggle to hire

people is this feeling of well,
I hire this person, they didn't

work out. And now I resent it,
because I spent all this money

and they left. And so they
struggle to hire sort of the

next person. How did you kind of
get over that? Because I know

nursing is totally different
from being a lawyer and owning

your own law firm. So how did
you sort of get over that in the

beginning, to give yourself
permission to hire and grow your

team?

Unknown: First of all, I would
say nursing and lawyering isn't

all that different. Which sounds
weird. But because I'm a law

that I practice in nursing, you
learn about how to make

decisions quickly, you'll learn
how to triage things, you learn

how to deal with high emotions,
you learn how to, it's a really,

it's a thought process, it's a
way of thinking of, you know,

let's go and here's a situation,
what do we have to do, it's not

all that different is really
good training for lawyering,

I've got to say, and in my
particular kind of learning,

just as an aside, I was in a
labor and delivery nurse. And

that's a time when a woman comes
in to you and they're like

scared and out of control, and
they don't know what's going on,

and you're trying to help them
stay calm and go through this

delivery process. Not too
dissimilar from what happens in

family law, people come in full
circle, they don't know what's

going on, they're terrified, and
you're like calming them down

and getting them through a
process. When you're in labor

and delivery, you know, at the
end of it, you're gonna have a

baby, right? And so you can kind
of hold it together. in family

law, what they don't know is
that they're gonna have this

great new life that I can see,
because I've seen it so often.

They don't always see that. So
I'm sort of midwifing or doula

adding a new life for a person.
So the nursing in the family

law, and the nursing in the law
kind of does, oddly enough, go

together. But back to your
question about how it works for

business is, I think you have to
this sounds kind of flaky, but

you kind of have to love people
up because they're scared that

new lawyers are scared, they
don't know. You know, it's scary

when you get it, because we all
know, they don't teach you

anything in law school that
really has anything to do with

practicing law, right? So you're
coming out, and you're into a

situation where you really want
to do a good job, and you really

want to be proud of your work.
But you need someone to really

lift you up and to make you feel
like you matter. And you're

important, and you have a
contribution to make. And so if

you build a relationship with
your team in a way that they

know that you're investing in
them, because you know, they

know that I want them to be a
great lawyer, and they know that

I have a lot to teach them. And
then they know that if they

stick with me and us that we're
going to continue to invest in

them. So it's not like you
invest in them for three months,

and then send them out and say,
Okay, once you to Bill 160 hours

a month, and you're on your own,
and you know, if your kid gets

sick, you can't, you know, go to
the doctor, and you know, I'm on

some of these Facebook pages
with the women lawyers, I don't

remember what they're all
called. But some of those

places, they're awful like your
kid is sick, and you can't go

take care of your sick kid in
the hospital because some

partner wants you to be you
know, arguing a motion, which

anyway, so we have a more family
friendly operation. And I think

that's part of why people stick
around.

Davina Frederick: I going back
to when you started your firm.

And you were you Did you start
it as a solo. Had you you'd

already been practicing a while
in another area.

Unknown: Well, I started off as
a medical malpractice lawyer,

which is how the book ended up
happening. And then I tend like,

you can tell by reading this
book, right? I hit insurance

companies that I hated dealing
with the insurance adjusters and

it just there was like, me and
people against sort of big

business over here and so yeah,
I kind of like family law

because it's me and people
versus someone else in people.

And there's a way to negotiate a
deal between people. So I left

med mal. And I started my own
med mal firm. And then I sort of

gradually took on family law for
just because I had a friend who

said, you should try family law.
And I thought he was crazy. And

I did, and I liked it. So I
started off with one partner,

and then she left and then I was
on my own for a while, and then

with a paralegal, and then just
kind of grew from there.

Davina Frederick: So how did
you? Did you have kind of going

back to what I was asking
before? Did you have any sort of

trepidation around hiring other
lawyers? or expanding? Did you

have situations where people you
hired people, and then they left

and then you're like, oh, my
gosh, I can't do this, or I'm

gonna do this, or did it always
sort of go smoothly for you?

And, and it was not anything you
had any sort of fear around

hiring other lawyers.

Unknown: Never had any fear
around it, because the work was

always there. My it was always
they used to laugh at me, you

know, the new lawyers back when
I was first starting, because

the my first who became my
partner, and just recently

joined the bench. And so she
just left her name's Monica

Carey. When she came, it was
like, Well, why don't you come

tomorrow, and just sit over
there. And I'll give you some

work. And we'll see how it goes.
And then the end of the day, she

did all stuff. And oh, we should
come back tomorrow. And let's

see how it goes. And it sort of
became this, she was just when

she would laugh. She had just
like, and then someone else, you

know. And then a few years
later, someone else showed up.

And I can't quite remember, we
just got busy. And we sort of

hired someone on a contract. And
I said, let's just see how it

goes. And if you're here, and
there's work. And so it was

always this very organic, it was
very like, and I wasn't probably

smart enough to like have a
business plan or any, it was

more like a vision, like I
wanted to build an organization

where the people felt
appreciated, because I'd been in

one of those law firms where it
wasn't that way, right? So I

knew what I didn't want. And so
I just wanted to build this

organization where people would
feel appreciated and coached and

mentored. And it just sort of
attracted people. So it was very

everything that a business
person and an MBA my brother's

an MBA, and it's like you're
doing this all wrong. And I'm

like,

Davina Frederick: well, and
obviously you, you didn't know

what you were doing, because
here you are, you know, quarter

of a century later, right? In
the novel, so the novel is

called the complication. And it
is a kind of female attorney,

heroine of the protagonist in
the book. And she, I'm not going

to give spoilers for the whole
book, but I'll just say that she

winds up leaving where she is in
starting her own law firm. And

she's having this conversation
with her mother, about starting

her own law firm. Can I do it?
Should I do it? You know, for

this particular reason. And I
thought it was very interesting,

as somebody who works with
women, law firm owners as

they're starting and growing and
expanding their law firm to get

to a million dollars, the
conversations, the fears that

are that she's expressing in the
book, are a lot of the fears and

conversations that I have with a
lot of women lawyers. And I, of

course, when I was reading, I
was like, I have to ask her, was

this kind of a reflection of
what your thought process when

you were thinking about starting
your own? Firm? You know, going

from med mal, then to starting
your own med mal firm? Did you

kind of go through this process,
in your own mind? Some of the

things that you discussed in the
book?

Unknown: That's a really funny
question. I never thought about

that. It's probably what I
should have thought about. You

know, I don't think I was just
like, when I started, it was day

to day. And I had just had, I'm
sort of I'm a, I subscribe to

this crazy, or woowoo theory of
make a vision, and it'll happen.

So I would every day say what I
wanted to happen and what I saw

happening and where I wanted to
go, and I was very visionary

about it all. But I didn't
really attend to the details. It

just I just trusted that they
were somehow going to work out

and they really did. So you know
that whole? I know, if you read

books, like you know the secret
or the answer,

Davina Frederick: the attraction
or the law of attraction,

Unknown: totally, I'm here to
say, I've built a very, very

successful business following.
Like, I used to read those books

every night. Like, we're
Napoleon Hill, or John Assaraf.

Like, I didn't do any of the
slides. I'm saying my MBA

brother, I didn't do the
business plan in the budgeting

and I'm like, come on over,
we'll see if there's any work.

You know, clients are going to
pay if they don't pay, I'm going

to let go of them and not going
to worry about I'm not going to

chase around people that aren't
paying and I'm going to assume

that the right people are going
to show up at the right and then

they do so I know it sounds kind
of weird, but it works for me.

Davina Frederick: That's good,
good. I actually am the same in

that I I read a lot of that and
sort of and when I teach I'm

teaching a lot of times about
log traction, I'm teaching a

hiring workshop right now. And
we started out the first session

was about clearing negative
energy around hiring, because a

lot of people have had bad
experiences. And I said, we have

to shift this energy, the first
step is we have to shift the

energy around hiring, you have
to stop telling the same stories

about these bad things that went
wrong, that time you hired

somebody, and they quit
whatever, you have to kind of

folk shift your focus, let's
clean all that negative energy

up, let's cut it, let's release
it. And then let's shift into

the kind of energy that we want
to have about this. So what can

we say? That will lighten up
these things? How can we reframe

these stories and, and talk
about them in different ways. So

I totally agree with you on Law
of Attraction. It's one of those

things where it believes in you
whether you believe in it or

not, you know, what we put out
there is, is what we

Unknown: want. And if you spend
all your time ruminating on the

fires that didn't work out, or
the what you're just talking

about, I have these bad ideas
about maybe about fires that

didn't work. If you're putting
all your attention on that, what

are you going to get, you're
going to get more people like

that. So let it go. Really think
about I mean, and we do this,

even in our we have a month or
weekly huddle. And if it feels

like we're not getting the
clients the quality, I'll just

go around the zoom, now it's on
the Zoom, you know, you know,

there's like 25 of us on this.
And I'm like, tell me the

qualities of the clients that
you want. Tell me your favorite

client, tell me what you love
about him or her? And what kind

of qualities are we looking to
attract, and we'll go around 25

people, and everybody will say,
you know, so you just want to

get the energy going in the
direction of the kind of clients

you want. And you know, the kind
of work that you want. And if

we're looking to hire somebody,
say, well do the 25 people in

the huddle, and we'll say we
want somebody who's smart, and

somebody who's you know, family
focused, and somebody who's a

good team member will go through
all the qualities kind of like

writing your ad your Yeah, you
put on indeed or something. But

everybody in the firm will
pardon right down to the

everybody like receptionist in
the business manager. And we'll

talk about the qualities we're
looking for in our new lawyer.

And then we'll create an ad that
goes on wherever they put those

ads, I think indeed or
something. And, and then people

respond to it. Because it's not
a typical, we're looking for

somebody who's got three years
of experience and and write a

brief and you know, can build
some number of hours. It's like

we want somebody who's got a
good, you know, prioritizes

their family and we want
somebody who, you know, wants to

be on a team and our ads don't
look like the kind of ad you'd

see for a law

Davina Frederick: firm. It's so
interesting. Yeah. Because

that's, I'm going through this
five day challenge right now.

And we're about to jump into
sort of the magnetic funnel

piece of it, which is how do you
set up? How do you write your

ads? And how do you pretty put
them? And what else do you do,

because so many people are
challenged with the idea of,

they're struggling to get people
to even apply for jobs. And when

they do, they're not a good fit,
and all of that and, and so I

kind of came up with this
presentation how to hire when no

one wants to work. And the idea
is that, you know that we really

have to change our energy and
thoughts around it. And we also

may have to do things a little
differently than we normally do.

We can't just get away with
writing down the ad, like what

you're talking about, I need
somebody with X years of

experience, bla bla bla and
putting that out there, that

there is an attraction piece of
it, that we need to be putting

out there and saying, This is
really who we're looking for.

And so for us a lot of that
revolves around core values. So

what do we value? So a lot of
what you're talking about with

your group is kind of what is it
that we really value? What is it

we're really looking for here?
Not just, you know, the

demographics, but like the
psychographics? And what core

values do they have that they
need to align with to fit in

here? Right. So I love that you
shared that. And I also I like

it that this is kind of
developed organically and with a

little bit of Woo, because
that's wonderful, you know, have

you always been that way? Or is
this something that somewhere

along the line, somebody said,
you know, kind of threw this

idea out at you and, and you
were like, oh, I need to change

the way I think something you
were I was kind of

Unknown: you know, I I'm old so
I grew up in the sort of, you

know, like the when I was sort
of just going to college, I

started getting into sort of
personal growth stuff, which is

a little bit sounds, you know,
weird now, but I learned really

early on that you know, you kind
of put out there what you want

and figure out a way to make it
happen and you start small

because like sometimes it's just
you want I don't know something

simple like to pass a test or to
you know, get a new car or your

you know, something easy and
then you sort of grow over time

and then it's like build a law
firm or build this nonprofit

like I don't know how to build I
don't know anything about

business. I don't know anything
about building a law firm like

if you were gonna say go teach
build a law firm I'd like you

know, go put it out there what
you want and it'll all happen in

there. And it's funny because I
have a friend and he's a teacher

Professor something at Seattle
University Law School and he

teaches a class on how to How to
Build how to have a law firm are

in like the business part of it.
And that the last class of the

year, he invites me and a couple
of other guys who come and talk

about how it's really like to
have a law firm, and they're the

one guy is all you got to have a
spreadsheet, you got to have a

budget, and you got to be it's
all fear based, it's all like,

and if it doesn't work, then
this is going to be a crisis and

don't hire anybody because they
might not be trustworthy. And

then I'm like, No, you gotta
have a vision. Sort of, like,

Davina Frederick: It's your show
with, like, daisies around your

head going, Oh, you just got to
be at peace with yourself.

Unknown: I do people. Yeah,

Davina Frederick: I will, I do
think, you know, you definitely

have built this law firm sort of
playing on your strengths,

because you know, that you so
it's a Know thyself, you know,

you're not the person who's
going to be into spreadsheets.

So but you can bring who you are
to it and create the kind of law

firm that you wanted, and you
desire, based around your

strengths, you know, because you
are somebody who apparently

loves people and loves to help
people like in crisis. And so

that's, that's not everybody's
like, though there are a lot of

people out there who aren't like
that they're not good at a

crisis, my best friend is a
labor and delivery nurse, and a

sense of, you know, from her
what that's like, and I could

have just like, No, I could
never do that, but it just would

not be me. But she is so you
know, just calm in a crisis, and

has that sort of, you know,
personality, and loves it and

loves the whole process of
helping me give birth and the

new life and all that kind of
thing. And, you know, we we have

to, to, all we can do is really
go with our strengths. And I

think people who sort of tried
to swim against that, and become

something they are not, are the
ones who really sort of struggle

with that, because there are
always people out there who can

help you figure out the
spreadsheets, right? And

Unknown: that's, like, I would
say, another thing that I've

seen a lot of people is trying
to start a business like, oh, I

don't want to, you know, I'm
gonna save money, I'm not gonna

hire a bookkeeper and do it
myself. And I'm like, Are you

crazy, like, just pay people and
even borrow money, like get a

loan and pay a bookkeeper and
you can like, you're gonna

succeed based on being really,
really good at your craft, I'm

not going to succeed, by
figuring out how to make an

Excel spreadsheet of, you know,
my rent and my malpractice

insurance and not like, that's
not, that's not a good use of my

time. And there's really smart
people who are very delighted

and happy to do the stuff that I
can't stand doing. And they want

to, you know, like you're
looking, you're not trying to

hire people like you, you're
trying to hire people, like, who

can do the things that you can't
do. And don't be afraid to hire

him. Because once you do that,
you're freed up to do what's

really good. And then the people
who are watching this, if you're

all lawyers, you're probably
really good at lawyering. And

that's why you want to have a
firm because you're really,

really good at it. And you want
to be able to share that with

your potential clients. So don't
be this my advice, like don't be

spending your time trying to
figure out how to open bank, we

got open a bank account, but how
to do books and how to manage

payroll and pay your taxes.

Davina Frederick: I agree. I
agree. It's interesting, because

you said borrow money. And I
think that we don't talk about

this enough. People who are
starting their firm. So you

know, a lot of people Bootstrap.
To start their firms are many

people who say I want a law
firm. And they bootstrapping,

there are people who get sort of
forced into opening their law

firm, because they can't find
the job they want. And they

Bootstrap and have because we've
been taught in our society, that

debt is bad. Many consumer debt,
credit card debt debt is bad.

Oftentimes, there is a
reluctance. And I find this a

lot with women, having worked
with men and women, that women

are reluctant, oftentimes to
invest in their business,

because somehow they feel that
that's that they don't, I don't

know, have a right to do that
they're taking away from their

family to do that, or they're
not supposed to borrow money.

What has been your experience?
What are your thoughts on that

in terms of borrowing money to
grow your business?

Unknown: Well, let's back up a
couple of steps and talk about

what money is, money is just
energy, and money circulates.

And the whole purpose of to me
of money is to take it in and

let it go. And so debt is just
debts as part of the

circulation, like you're taking
money from this place, and

you're putting it over here, and
then people are gonna pay you

and it's if you think of it,
like take off all the charge of

money being this important thing
that really matters a lot. And

just think of it as energy. So,
if I need money, I'm gonna

borrow it because it feeds my
need to back to being this

really you know, I'm gonna say
I'm great lawyer, but you're

good. You know, you want to do
your craft. In order to do your

craft, you're going to have to
circulate the money around

circulate the energy and don't
be afraid to give it away. Don't

be afraid to pay people with a
don't be afraid to borrow it

because when you borrow it, then
it just stimulates because it's

for a purpose. You're not
borrowing money to like, go on a

trip to Hawaii or something,
you're borrowing money to invest

in yourself, because you believe
in yourself. So and once you

start doing your very best work,
because you've got the money or

the you know the little bit of
the energy that you need to be

able to do your work, then
people start paying you because

you this sort of is over here
saying, it's just gotta be paid

back, then that stimulates the
people that are paying you, and

then you've got to pay other
people. But I think a lot of

people think of money, and I
think we're always this way,

like money is some scary thing
that has, you know, it's really,

it's really not that scary. It's
just something that moves around

the tool. It's a resource, a
tool. Yeah, yeah. And you don't

be afraid of it just you know,
you, if somebody doesn't pay,

you let it go, because there's
someone else that will pay you.

But if you focus all your time
on this person will pay or if

you take debt, and you're afraid
you can't pay it back and all

your energy is going, I'm afraid
I can't pay my debt back, then

guess what you're not going to
get, it's not going to start

coming in over here, because
this

Davina Frederick: is a block.
Right? Right. So you need to

borrow it knowing that
everything's going to work out,

right. I think of it in terms of
expanded capacity, so you, you

to achieve wealth, or achieve
the law firm that you want to

achieve, or whatever great
accomplishment, you have to

expand your capacity for it.
Like your mental and emotional

capacity for it, I need to be
able to hold this, you know,

this vision that I have, and we
grow into it, sometimes we grow

into that capacity, but then
that also is going to help us

expand the resource capacity
that we need. Right so that your

time that money is resource,
people are resource. So all of

these time is a resource, all of
these resources that we have,

we're wanting to grow our
resources, because people with

more resources have more
options, right? So there's an

expansion of your mind, though,
that has to happen to be able to

hold these vast resources
because you if you are mentally

there, like you said, you're
going to be going, oh my god, I

can't pay this debt back or Oh,
my God, I can't hire somebody

because I'm scared they're going
to be I'm going to make a

mistake and hire the wrong
person. And then we all do,

right. So all of that is about
expanding your mind and saying,

I can do this, if if they can do
it. I can do it. Other people

can do it, I can do it. I'm
watching I'm looking, you know,

what if what if What else is
possible? Those kinds of things,

right. So I love that sort of
you and I are on the same page

with that philosophy. I love it.
I want to before we run out of

time, I want to talk about your
civil survival project. And

because that's something else,
too, that was a that started out

small, and then grew, the vision
expanded, and it became its own

sort of thing, and a very
important thing for a lot of

people's lives. So why don't you
tell us about it, how it started

out what it is, how it started
out, and where it ended up?

Unknown: Well, so long time ago,
I was sort of, in a point in my

career where I thought it was
time for me to think a little

bit more about giving back. And
so I ended up writing this

series of books that taught sort
of basic legal survival skills

to marginalize people who were,
you know, just ordinary people

who didn't have access to
lawyers, and which is still kind

of out there. But anyway, I
ended up teaching. So it's like

how to rent an apartment and how
to be a good employee and

childhood divorce and criminal
law. And so I ended up just

through circumstances, teaching
it to a group of people that had

just come out of prison. And
they were like, taking notes

since like, we were talking
about how to rent an apartment

and how to be a good at it was
like employment law and landlord

tenant law, and but how to do
this, and they would, you know,

take all these notes. And then
finally, one, I was like, This

is so helpful. And thank you so
much for helping us with this.

There's just one problem. And I
said, What's that? And they

said, we can't get a job. And we
can't get a place to live

because we're all felons. And I
was like, what? Because I'm the

privileged white lady, like, I
didn't know that. I'm like, What

are you talking about? And
they're like, Well, you know,

when we go to rent an apartment,
or apply for a job, they asked

us, you know, your criminal
background record, and then we

have to say that and then we
can't get a job. And I'm like,

this is messed up. And then they
started to tell me these

unbelievably heart wrenching
stories about one guy, this big

black guy was sitting in my
office, telling me the scariest

day he ever had, he was a gang
member, and he was in prison for

15 years. And he said, The
scariest night I ever had was

the day I got out of prison,
because I didn't know what to

do. Like I was just thrown out,
you know, with a bus pass and

$20. And I had no place to go.
And now I've tried to find a job

and I can't find a job anyway.
So after listening to all these

stories and stuff, I'm like,
Well, you know, these are laws

that are holding you back. And
I'm a lawyer. And I know that we

can change laws, but there's no
way that this particular

demographic of people could
necessarily get access to the

policymakers. And so I came up
with this idea that after I got

to know all these new friends
and heard their very sad stories

of you know how scared they were
and how traumatized they were,

first of all, being in prison,
first of all, they're

traumatized before they got to
prison, which is what led them

to whatever you know, behavior
they did that got them in prison

and then they're out here
traumatized and I'm like, you

know, if our legislators could
hear directly the story Isn't

these new friends of mine, they
would not want the laws to be so

oppressive to them. So I got
this idea that we should put

together workshops where I would
bring in formerly incarcerated

people. And we talked about how
to just had a lobby really how

to change laws, like how to
change policy, we did, you know,

how does a bill become a law we
did, we learned about

organizing, we learned about,
you know, civil rights and

marriage equality. And I was
trying to teach them about how

the power of organizing in our
country, there's 100 million

people, one out of four people
in our country has a criminal,

something on their record that
impairs their ability to get

housing and jobs, which is an
astonishing, that is, I have no

idea. So I put together this
workshop, and the first workshop

was 75 people that just come out
of prison at some point in their

life. And then we learned all
about how to change policy. And

then in the afternoon, we had
legislators come in. And then we

had our people practice telling
their stories to the

legislators. And invariably,
They'd cry and go, Oh, my God, I

had no idea. And so it just sort
of grew and became it became

this huge community of people
that I would never have known

before, who were just passionate
about wanting to make their

lives better, because they made
a mistake, they're home. And

they just want to get a job and
a place to live and be a you

know, participate member of the
community. So that started to

grow. And then there's this
young woman named Tara Simmons,

who was a law student when I
first met her, and she was

formerly incarcerated. And oddly
enough, she's also a nurse. So

we have a lot in common. She
went to prison, she came out,

she went to law school, and she
wanted to sort of run, you know,

get involved in this
organization. So long story

short, I mentored her, and
somewhere along the line after a

couple of years, and then talk
about money, I paid all these

people salary, like I started
this thing. And here's what I

learned. I learned that, you
know, for us privileged white

ladies, if someone says, Hey,
can you volunteer and do

something we say, Sure, well,
this demographic, you say, can

you volunteer, and we're gonna
go to the legislature, they're

like, well, who's gonna pay for
my gas? And what if we have to

get lunch and, you know, I can't
take time off work. And so they

can't, they need to be paid for
stuff. So I just started paying

them. And then it started
becoming an organization. So I

hired a couple of people full
time to work for the

organization that didn't even it
wasn't a, I didn't even smart

enough to make it into a
nonprofit, I just thought it

because I was paying because I'm
like, this is important work. So

I'm paying people full time
salaries, to go and organize

this group of people that needed
help with policy and stuff. And

ultimately, it became really
clear to me that it really

wasn't my work to do because it
needs to be run by people who

are impacted by the criminal
legal system. And so I turned it

over pretty quickly to Tara. And
now it's run. And I'm the

president of the board now, but
it's run completely by people,

almost everybody in leadership
there is formerly incarcerated,

and they mentor each other's
couple of lawyers and stuff who

aren't formerly incarcerated,
but it's a group of people that

are and they're running it now
and, and talk about money and

energy. It's like, that didn't
make any sense. You know, my NBA

brother was like, What the hell
are you what are you doing?

You're like paying people,
there's no income coming in.

This is not a for profit, let
no, turn it into a nonprofit

ultimately. But anyway, the
point is that there's a whole

demographic of people that are
just like, women coming out of

prison, listen, as they come out
of prison, and they're reunited

with their children. And then
they can't volunteer at their

kids school. So they can't bring
cupcakes to their second graders

birthday party at school. And if
ever there was a child who needs

their mother to be supporting
them in their school

environment, it's a kid whose
mother has been taken away from

them and put in the criminal
system. And then they come out.

And the schools have all these
rules and about, the mothers

can't come in, they can't. My
friend, Tara Simmons, who is now

the executive director of civil
survival. She is a lawyer, and

she just got elected to our
state legislature. She's

representative Simmons, now. She
can't volunteer in her kids High

School.

Davina Frederick: Wow, that
insane. That is. So

Unknown: there's all of these.
So anyway, to make long story

short, they started changing
laws, they've changed like five

or six changed all kinds of laws
about how fines are imposed on

people have been in prison, they
got civil survival worked with

another couple of organizations
to get the right to vote for

formerly incarcerated people in
our state. Like they're changing

the laws and the rules around
you know how to make life better

for people who are coming out of
prison. And this wasn't anything

that was even remotely
interested in, I knew nothing

about this. It's just sort of
sort of circumstantial, that I

ended up teaching this to this
group of people. But now, let's

think about that. This morning.
I've got so many friends who've

been in prison, I got friends
who have been in prison for

murder and for all kinds of
drugs and, and they're all you

know, trying to make their lead
a lot of them come out and

really want to work with the
youth in the community. So

there's sort of a ripple effect
because they come out and we

help them get a lot of their
rights back and get their fines

canceled and free them up so
that they can live their best

life. And now they're running
organizations for youth all

Cross sort of the Seattle area,
and it's really, really pretty

inspiring.

Davina Frederick: Wow. And it's
interesting because you, you

were practicing med mal, and
then you became a family lawyer.

And then really, you got into
this area that would have been a

it seemed like a natural fit for
somebody who's in defense for

criminal defense work. No,
nothing. I've got sort of, from

your own experience, and what
inspired you to sort of write

the books to begin with? I mean,
was there something you know, it

was the West End for

Unknown: criminal I was more
like, you know, what it was like

being a lawyer and realize how
little access people had to

like, we have the way our
society is set up as we've got

the rules of the game, right.
And nobody knows the rules of

the game. So we've got this like
playing Monopoly, but nobody

tells you the rules, because
regular average Joe citizen

doesn't know the rules. But if
you break one of the rules, you

find out very quickly that you
have broken a rule, whether

it's, you know, building a fence
on your neighbor's property, or

not paying an employee or you
know, whatever you've done

wrong, they're going to come
right down on you. But if we

don't tell people what the rules
are, it's kind of not fair to

say, you know, we have a game
and it's, you know, the goal is

life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness are not going to tell

you any of the rules until you
break them. And then oh, we're

going to charge you three or
$400 an hour to talk to someone

about how to fix what you did
that you didn't know that you

shouldn't have done. And I think
everybody's a lawyer probably

feels that way on some level,
like, people come in, and you're

like you did what? And then you
think for a moment? How would

you not know?

Davina Frederick: Yeah, that was
thing for me. That was that I've

always said to people. I'm so
grateful for my law school

education, because I didn't know
what I didn't know. You don't

understand, like, all the
different levels of governance

and rules that go on, because
it's not just, it's not just our

laws in the justice system. It's
also all these administrative

rules or agencies and laws of
rules and things like that, that

we have set up. And other people
have set up all around us and

for us, and against us and all
of those things, right? So

right, and you don't realize
until you start like you buy

property, and then you're paying
property taxes, and then you've

got your work, and then you got
to pay income tax. And there's

all of these things that you
don't you don't realize how

those are laws, even though
they're not in the justice

system. Right. And so it really,
you know, I always say, I mean,

like, I think a legal education
is never wasted, because it just

opened your eyes, even if you
don't go practice as an

attorney, it just opened your
eyes to the complexities that

our society has developed over
time, and how it impacts people

in different ways. You know, so

Unknown: you teach anybody about
them, right? So no,

Davina Frederick: need to go to
law school, you don't learn

about them. Right?

Unknown: You can afford to pay
someone for two bucks an hour to

tell you what a stupid thing you
just did. So

Davina Frederick: Well, I
graduated, I didn't graduate

from law school till I was 14.
So like the first half of my

life, I had no I was like,
happy, you know, whatever in the

marketing world thinking I
wasn't happy. And then I was

like, no, no, you have no idea.
When I went through law school.

You're you recently won an
award, you won an award so

recently that between the time
we scheduled this, and today,

you've won this award. So why
don't you tell us about the

award? What is it it's a I don't
remember the name of it, because

it's long. To tell us the name.
I've

Unknown: never heard of that
before. Either. It makes you

feel any better. It's called the
Sally's Sally piece, Sally

savage Award for Leadership and
philanthropy from the Washington

State Bar Association. So they
gave me this award because they

work in civil survival. And I, I
just feel like for them to

acknowledge that the people that
civil survival serves are worthy

of like, it's not me, right?
It's like, there's a whole

demographic as live ripple
effect. There's a whole

demographic of people that have
been really forgotten by our

society and like, who wants to
really care about somebody who's

been in prison? Really,
honestly. So I think it was

really, I was very touched that
they realized that this

particular demographic of people
can really be lifted up and

really be their lives can be
made so much better. Just by

changing some policies, and you
know, and now we're doing

actually, terrorists now got a
legal clinic going there. So we

do expungements and we do
different vacating records and

you know, things to clean up
people's record, because what I

didn't know, here's a statistic
people who are out of prison for

seven years are no more likely
to commit a crime than anybody

else. Yet. We, you know, I've
got friends been out of prison

for 20 years and they still have
to, they can't get an apartment.

I have a friend who is a
professor of law at Georgetown,

who did 12 years in prison for
armed bank robbery came out,

went to law school, clerked for
Federal Court judge is now a

professor of law at Georgetown,
and he couldn't rent an

apartment in DC because he had a
criminal record. And keep it

out. I don't know how long but
the point is, and one of my

friends told me, she goes, when
the judge sentenced me, he

sentenced me. He didn't
sentenced me to a lifetime of

unemployment and homelessness, I
did my time. I, you know, went

to prison, and I made amends for
what I did wrong, and it

doesn't, it's not fair that then
once you're out the rest of your

life, you can't get a job, you
can't get a place to live, you

can't volunteer in school, you
can't. There's a million jobs

like hair salon and an
astonishing number of jobs that

you can't get if you've ever
been in prison. So civil

survival is going about cleaning
up all of those things that hold

people back.

Davina Frederick: Right, right.
I think what I think what's so

wonderful is that you, you've
identified to how there's a

whole demographic that doesn't
have an app doesn't exist, the

powerlessness not having access
to policymakers, and awareness,

creating awareness for
policymakers, lawmakers, you

know what I mean?

Unknown: You know, what
happened, there hypotheses

worked. So I had this idea that
if my, my people, you know, my,

my friends who've been in prison
really got to know their policy

makers, like, my people now know
their legislator to the point

where when they see her in
Safeway, they give a hug, and

they, you know, how are you, you
know, and, Christina, and what

about that bill that you're
working on? And can we have

lunch tomorrow. And so there's
this whole group of people that

have spent time in prison who
are now on a first name basis

with their mayor with their city
council, one of my friends who's

was in prison just got elected
to the cameras, the city or

county council over in a small
town, outside of Seattle. And

they built relationships to the
point where the legislators are

calling them on their cell
phone, like we're looking at a

bill right now. And we want to
know how this is going to impact

your community. So it totally
works. But how did they in their

wildest because the first one
who started like, I never

thought I would talk to a state
senator. And I'm like, she's

your neighbor, like, she wants
to help you. And so they started

to build relationships. And then
on other friends on us, you

know,

Davina Frederick: that can be
replicated in all county state.

Unknown: Yeah, it's totally not
that hard. And there's 100

million people who fall into
this category. So if I had a

magic wand and all the money in
the world, you know, you could

you can replicate this.

Davina Frederick: Well, this is
where your this is where your

law of attraction and
manifestation is going to come

into, you're put it out there,
put it out there, and and the

more people that can put the
energy around that, the more

powerful it will be. Before we
wrap up today, I do I do want to

I've mentioned your book a
couple times, I would love for

you to tell us kind of like you
mentioned, you told me before we

started but I'd like you to
share with everybody sort of how

you wound up writing the novel,
because I know, I know another a

number of women law firm owners
who have also written novels.

And but I'm an avid reader, and
I'm also a writer, but writing a

novel is just a whole different
thing for me. So I'm curious as

to what how did that come about?
What made you decide to do that

Unknown: was a malpractice
lawyer. And I, once it's sort of

like, same thing, like what you
didn't know, you didn't know, I

didn't realize how messed up it
is about how we value people's

lives and the legal system. So
if you're an older person, and

you die, when I was malpractice
lawyer and represent an older

person, they're like, well, they
don't have a job. Now I made

general damages. And you know,
they don't have any, you know,

they died and they're not worth
very much. And I'm like, that is

so messed up. Like, I come from
the medical world, wherever you

live, no matter who it is, you
know, you bust your ass to save

them and to bring them, you
know, give them the best that

you can give them in the legal
system. It's like, well, if

you're like a 40 year old tech
worker, you're worth more than a

80 year old grandpa or
something. So that made me

crazy. And I wanted to like,
write articles about it. And

then I thought, nobody's gonna
read an article about valuing

lives in the human, you know,
human lives in the justice

system. So I got this idea to
write it into a novel of

another. I got another one just
coming out in April. So the the

story in the first book is about
an older guy, and that scene and

the first scene and that book
came from rural case, by the

way, with the aorta and the
puncture and everything. Wow,

that really happened. So it
really happened, that guy died.

And then the insurance company
kept saying he's not worth

anything. And I'm like, What are
you talking like, it's bad. I

feel like it's wrong. So I
wanted to bring that to light.

So this book is about this older
guy who dies, and then the

protagonists and she was he was
a special person in her life.

And so she's struggling with how
the insurance company is trying

to devalue him. And she's trying
to figure out like, how can you

really express the value of a
person in the lives of the

people that love them? And is
that something that our system

could do doing differently? So
that was what made me want to

write it and then the second
book is about a A baby who dies,

which I know is sad. But it's
the same thing. Because when I

was doing malpractice, I did a
lot of OB cases and if a baby is

injured in a birth injury, and
then they live, then you've got

this multimillion dollar
settlement because they're gonna

have to have life care for the
rest of their life. But if

babies injured in a delivery
maximum, your friends gonna like

this book is injured and my
husband's an OBGYN. So he helped

me with this. Let's deliver if
there's an injury in a delivery

room and the baby dies. And
they're like, Well, you can have

another baby. So it's not really
that valuable. So it's the same,

the insurance companies do the
same thing. On the flip side,

you know, like an old person's
not worth anything. And so the

second book I wrote was, because
it made me crazy when I did a

lot of birth injury cases, if
the baby died, they're like,

Well, what's you there's no
damages? Like, what? What do you

want?

Davina Frederick: No damages.
Wow. So I mean, and

Unknown: that's what got me
going, but nobody wants. You had

to make it into like a mystery
to make it fun and interesting

that people would want to engage
with. So hopefully it is,

Davina Frederick: well, it
sounds like you have embarked on

kind of a new career as a
novelist. So we'll be looking

forward to those novels, you're
gonna be like the famous

novelist now where every year, a
new novel comes out. And we

anticipate every November, we're
getting a new novel from you,

right?

Unknown: That's a series. So I'm
like, we've got Camille's the

protagonist in theory. So the
second one is her with a birth

injury case. And then the third
one, which I'm writing now, of

course, now 20 years, because
it's throat these 20 years ago,

the first time and then I read
revamp them during COVID, and

publish them. But now that I've
had like, 20 years of life, the

third one is about women in
prison being reunited with their

children, and the legal issues
around that. Another thing

that's funny about this is, when
I wrote those books, the first

time I was the age of the
protagonist, and now in the age

of her mother.

Davina Frederick: Did that
happen? mother's gonna be a more

important character as we go on,
you're obviously. Right. Oh,

that's fascinating. Amanda,
thank you so much for being here

and talking with me today, time
has really flown by, and we need

to end but tell us how we can
first of all, tell us where we

can find the book to buy it for
those who have it. And also tell

us how we can connect with you.
If we want to connect with you

find out more information about
you. And the work you're doing.

Um,

Unknown: well, the books on
Amazon, but I'm kind of a

supporter of indie bookstores,
there's a website called

bookshop.org, where you can
order books and somehow they

come out of independent
bookstores as opposed to Amazon

not to say anything bad about
Amazon. But the book is called

The complication. And the second
one is called deliver them from

evil. And that I have a website
for my law firm, which is Dubois

law. dotnet. I think another URL
that I got a Facebook page

that's going to author Facebook
page, I have 3000, I'm almost

have 3000 Facebookers on my
author page, which cracks me up

because I'm not really I'm
learning Facebook as we go. But.

So that's Amanda DuBois, author,
and then I guess, and then

LinkedIn, and all the other
regular places.

Davina Frederick: Well, thanks
for sharing. We'll include those

in the show notes so that people
can just click on them and we'll

include bookshop is a bookshop.
But Doc shop.org.org

Unknown: local bookstore, but
it's kind of cool to support

independent bookstores,
honestly. So

Davina Frederick: yeah, so
thanks for being here. We'll

include those in the show notes
for people who want to reach out

and they want to read her novel.
I know all the lady lawyers are

gonna love that. And thanks
again for being here. I've had

some

Unknown: tell your friends and
nurse I want her feedback. Oh, I

Davina Frederick: will I
absolutely. She loves to read.

She She and I both love to read
a lot. So I'll definitely be

recommending that to her. All
right. Thank you. All right.

Thanks for having me.