Episode 253 Marketing Mastery for Law Firms with Kevin Daisy
We optimize it. We publish it, and we can get the same results. Or we have firms that don't wanna do that, and they want us to do it for them. So we have to file ABA guidelines and the law and all that good stuff. So content is very important to this whole thing, but you can't just write content.
Kevin Daisy:What is it what's the content for? What's your competition? What's the keyword difficulty?
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Davina:Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick, and my guest today is Kevin Daisy. Kevin is both the cofounder and chief marketing officer of Array Digital with a legacy in the digital marketplace spanning more than 2 decades. Kevin's extensive experience in website design and digital marketing make him a valuable strategic partner for law firms. His team doesn't just create digital presences.
Davina:They develop online growth strategies that help law firms establish and lead in their respective fields. Beyond his pivotal role at Array Digital, Kevin extends his commitment to the legal community as the host of the Managing Partners podcast. Here, he engages with top legal professionals sharing insights on innovative marketing strategies, leadership dynamics, and the nuances of business growth within the legal sector. So please help me welcome Kevin Daisy to the podcast. So welcome, Kevin.
Davina:It's so good to have you here.
Kevin Daisy:Thank you so much. I'm excited to be on the show.
Davina:Good. Why don't you I I've introduced you, and talked about Array Digital. But why don't you go into a little more detail about how you serve your clients in the I your ideal client.
Kevin Daisy:I appreciate that. Yeah. Absolutely. So at Array Digital, we are a law firm marketing agency. But I'd like to always back up and say, well, we're not necessarily a marketing agency.
Kevin Daisy:And then I'll get into kinda ideal client and what we do. But, you know, really, we we're like a conversion company. So for search. Sorry. I was cleaning my throat.
Davina:No worries.
Kevin Daisy:We help our clients get found organically online, and that could be through paid means. But, we like to live at the bottom of the funnel for our clients. So that means you go on Google, you search for a a problem or have questions. We wanna make sure our clients come up there, and and they're found, represented in a good light, and convert, and then improve that as much as possible through through time. So we're not a marketing agency.
Kevin Daisy:The fact that we do billboards or crazy graphics or fun commercials, we really play at the tip of the spear or the conversion where they have a need now, they find you, they convert, and and our clients get more or more clients. So I always like to kind of point that out because, you know, we don't do any of the fancy visual type of stuff really. We we play there. Our ideal client is, any law firm in the country, that is we we have offerings down to the solar level with coaching, education, websites, and support, all the way up to, you know, 300 attorneys. So we we kinda span the gamuts.
Kevin Daisy:We work with personal injury, criminal defense, divorce, immigration, really almost all verticals. Business firms kinda send them you know, tend not to to do what we do as far as that kind of, you know, the SEO and things like that, but we still have those kinds of clients too. So so really, law firms looking to grow and and drive more leads is is what we're looking for.
Davina:Wonderful. What tell me what did you originally start out sort of saying, I'm gonna start this company and work with law firms? Or did you work with other what was your entrepreneurial journey to that point?
Kevin Daisy:Yeah. That's a great question. So the first answer is no. That's not how we started. I I started this company originally.
Kevin Daisy:It wasn't called this. In 2006, I was 23. I quit a corporate job, and I like doing websites and and design and and just quit my job. Got a couple of, small kinda client deals. And I was a local website company, so I made websites and did SEO all the way back for local companies in Virginia, in the area that I lived in, Virginia Beach.
Kevin Daisy:And so I became the local website guy. Right? And so I grew that into having a couple staff and got a office and, you know, had a a company and a brand. And we were with some really cool clients, the US Army, some hospitals, some law firms as well. But I wasn't really niche, and I didn't have a plan to.
Kevin Daisy:Fast forward with having just growth and scaling issues and and and trying to get past a certain amount of revenue. I just couldn't do it. I just kept hitting the ceiling. And at that time I met my business partner who was kinda in the same boat. He was, you know, having the same issues, but he kinda had a different background and a different skill set.
Kevin Daisy:And he's more process driven, and I'm more creative and, you know Right. That kind of stuff. So we met each other. We had a couple, of deals that we worked on together for different types of clients. And we realized that, you know, maybe we'd be better off if we join forces.
Kevin Daisy:You know, we both had kids. We both you know, we're trying not to work ourselves to death, but we're also trying to figure out how do we how do we grow this thing and do something bigger. So we came together in 2017, founded to Ray Digital. And through meeting people in masterminds, just like lawyers out there, you have masterminds and groups and people to turn to. We had joined a mastermind group of business owners, and they said, you guys have to niche.
Kevin Daisy:Like, you're not focused on any industry, and that's really the only way you're gonna grow. And and we had heard this message for for quite a long time. And we finally said, okay. You know, let's join forces. Let's start fresh.
Kevin Daisy:We'll rebrand, and then we will we'll pick an industry to go into. And so without being too long winded, we did a bunch of research. We looked at our clientele. We looked at the economy. We looked at, all kinds of factors, and we narrowed it down to, medical and legal.
Kevin Daisy:And then we had to choose 1. So so And
Davina:we tossed coin.
Kevin Daisy:It was almost like yeah. Coin toss, everyone. So, yeah, we we we chose the hardest vertical possible in marketing. And, there here we are. So, yeah, fast forward to now, we, you know, total for our, you know, the the few niche niches that we work in, we have over 40 some full time.
Kevin Daisy:We have deep technical SEO knowledge. We have a full staff content team, for, you know, law firms. So we got ABA compliance, you have tone of voice. You have all the legal aspects of the content in the state or practice area. So it's it's quite challenging, but we wanted the hardest thing.
Kevin Daisy:And so we've we've hired the best folks around the country. Rebuilt the whole team over the years to have the best talent we can. And it's, it's a challenging space to be in, but, you know, I don't think we wouldn't want it any other way. So Right. So, yeah, fast forward.
Kevin Daisy:Here we are. And, Yeah.
Davina:And and lawyers bring their own challenges because we are we we generally think we're smarter than the average bear, so we probably don't make the most easy clients to work with. And especially if you're dealing with larger law firms that operate by committee and they make decisions with multiple people involved, that kind of thing.
Kevin Daisy:Oh, yeah.
Davina:I also think one of the challenges is probably that it's one of the most competitive in terms of online marketing. And so you really have to bring some expertise and knowledge because all lawyers wanna be at the top of the first page of Google. Right? And so how, you know, how it's a huge market, and everybody wants to be number 1. So talk to me about kind of how you guys developed that level of expertise in, serving clients?
Davina:Or I mean, did you kind of, like, start out with certain, niches and kind of master that? Or or, you know, the practice areas, I mean. Practice areas. Or what did you do? A lot of conversations with lawyers, I imagine.
Kevin Daisy:Well, again, we had a couple lawyers that were clients, and so we we definitely turned to them. We had good relationships with them. And, so that was very helpful to to say, hey. You know, we're gonna we're gonna specialize in helping you and and firms like you. And they they like that, of course.
Kevin Daisy:And, they were, you know, more than willing to kinda help us in some of the questions we had and and things like that. The other thing to do that we had to do was bring in folks that had legal marketing experience, and that was eye opening. And, we brought in, a gentleman named Gary to our SEO team. He was not even at a leadership level necessarily at the at the time, but he had owned his own marketing firms. He had sold a couple.
Kevin Daisy:He was a little, you know, older than than than us. And, but he was kinda ready to be like, hey. I don't I don't wanna run a company anymore. Well, you know, surprise to him was now he's the president of a radio's door. He runs the company, technically.
Kevin Daisy:And he just started going, we need this. We need that. We need this. Change this. Change that.
Kevin Daisy:Throw this out the window. And, he had come from bigger companies like Fine Law and Thomas Rogers and and, you know, had the the experience. And so we had to hire the experience. And so, you know, we knew how to do certain things in relationships and processes, but we didn't understand some of this the the challenges that we were getting ourselves
Davina:know what you didn't know.
Kevin Daisy:We no. We didn't know what we didn't know. And and a lot of things you said a minute ago are 100% true. Working with lawyers, probably more challenging than working with some other types of folks. But understanding that and figuring that out is, you know, been part of the process, of course.
Kevin Daisy:And yeah. And then you have your solo lawyers versus the law firms that have marketing professionals on staff versus, you know, 300 attorney firms that have multiple layers of other people and executives that you have to work with in order to even get a decision made. So there's all kind of different dynamics there. Right. And on a mission, then it's like actually doing a good job and getting results.
Kevin Daisy:And so yeah. There's there's a lot there to unpack. But, again, bringing on Gary, he went from SEO manager to operations director to president. And when I say we retooled the team, it's really literally, like, only a few team members from the beginning are are left. They just couldn't do what we needed them to do when we had to bring in people to to do that.
Kevin Daisy:And then we had to say, hey, Gabe. You know, bring in and you need to start developing your own processes. We need to get this figured out and do the best we can. So those managers had to bring in people underneath them, and what do they need? So there's a lot of, you know, a lot of invest, you know, for the people and our tools and processes.
Kevin Daisy:And that's taken the last 3 years really to be where we're at at a pretty strong, you know, stance where we're at right now. So, yeah, it's been it's been quite the job.
Davina:Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think it's, for law firm owners, it's good to hear what we're talking about what we're talking about as law firm owners in hiring experienced people that already know how to do things as opposed to somebody in inexperience where you have to train. And bringing in people with knowledge to help you get to the neck that you don't have to help you get to the next level. So I love that you shared that story that that's the same for other types of businesses, not just law firms. And people can look at what other businesses are doing and say, hey, can I do this myself as a law firm owner?
Davina:Can I bring in can I grow faster, grow better by bringing in people who already have knowledge that I don't have? And I imagine that was sort of scary because Gary probably cost a little bit of money when you brought him in.
Kevin Daisy:A little bit.
Davina:Yeah. That you guys probably have had a meeting about. Yeah. But he's show he's proven his value, I'm sure.
Kevin Daisy:A 100%. And, you know, it's just as entrepreneurs, not me and my partner, you know, it's hard to get out of your own way. And it's definitely hard to bring in someone that you you kinda hired for a lower position. He kinda steamrolled through and was like, you know, I'm not gonna work here unless you guys change this and change that. And then we were just like, man, this guy is like, you know, all over us about this stuff.
Kevin Daisy:And, you know, we started to kinda give in and say, okay, well maybe he knows what he's doing. Let's give him some room to run. And what do you need? And so eventually we just said, what do you need? We're we're here.
Kevin Daisy:As long as we have the money, we're we're in. Let's Right. And so, you know, that's what we did. And then, thankfully, we were, you know, able to do that. You know, through COVID, we actually grew.
Kevin Daisy:We didn't shrink. We never we've never laid on anyone off ever. Yeah. And so, you you know, we've let people go because of skills or differences and and through that challenging period. And I hate to have anyone lead my team, but it just wasn't gonna get the job done.
Kevin Daisy:And at the end of the day, the company, you know, when the folks that are staying the house has to survive. So
Davina:How do you feel that your mindset had to change or change through that process of, well, wait a minute. This is our company. We brought this person in, and he knows more than we do. And we need maybe we should listen to him. What kind of conversations were you having with your partner, and what sort of fears were you did you guys have to overcome?
Davina:And how do you think you were able to do that?
Kevin Daisy:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all those things there, you know, had to happen. And, again, as entrepreneur and owner for so long, I was 23, is, you know, 20 some years, I think. I've been doing I'm not worth for anybody so long.
Kevin Daisy:Is yeah. Me and my partner had to hash out some things that, you know, because, you know, we had some in differences or things here and there that Gary is able to was able to really bring to light. We had to change his role and get him out of the business a little bit, to be honest with you. Because him and Gary are, like, kinda similar. And then for me, I moved to more of, just, you know, sales and and marketing for our company on the face of the business.
Kevin Daisy:And so the podcast, which we can talk about too. But Yeah. So I moved into a different role. I have KPIs. I track my time.
Kevin Daisy:Like, it's like, you know, as a owner, it's, you know, I'm under the microscope and, you know, looking at what I'm doing in activities. But it's all for the better. It took me a while to kinda come around to it, but it's we got data and metrics, what's working, what's not. I can say, hey hey, guys, we need to stop these activities. This is not worth my time over here.
Kevin Daisy:So we got so much more clarity. And so where my team has to log stuff and track their time and do tasking, I have the same exact things in place for myself. And so, you know, before you know, you might have some some goals and you're powerless or something like that, but, you know, you're kinda running running wherever you wanna run as an owner. So and that's interesting.
Davina:Because you're because you're I think a lot of people entrepreneurs go into business for themselves because they don't wanna work for other people, and they wanna strike out on their own and make their own, you know, way. But what I find with those people who sort of move to that next level is there's a lot of giving up your ego, you know, and saying, okay. Well, how what are my true strengths and how am I best fitting in this organization, and what do I need to help me be my best and make my company the best? And so it sounds like you guys went through that journey. I promise we're gonna talk about digital marketing, because I do wanna get into that.
Davina:But I find your I I find your story fascinating. And I and I think a a lot of our listeners will really relate to that and go, wait a minute. Maybe I need a Gary. So
Kevin Daisy:No one ever heard of that.
Davina:No. I I do wanna shift gears and I do wanna talk about because we have a limited amount of time. So I do wanna ask you about digital marketing. So, for a lot of people, you know, people, especially law firm owners, we sort of think we know what that means. And then somebody sends us a proposal and we don't understand any language on it, but we just go along with it anyway.
Davina:So I always like to help kind of identify terms and and things like that. So we've heard of SEO before. We've talked about that. Everybody knows that search engine optimization. But give me an idea, when you say digital marketing, what does that encompass for you guys?
Kevin Daisy:Sure. And, yeah, I guess that's a good point as as for us versus there's other things out there that we don't do But I'll focus on today what what we do and and why we focus on the areas we do. For us, what we consider are pillars of digital marketing, what we help our clients are for, it comes down to the website, and then being the most piece the most important piece of the whole puzzle here. And I know that's the law firm are just like, yeah, I got my website or I've had 10 websites or whatever. You can get them cheap.
Kevin Daisy:You can pay a lot. You know, it wasn't the matter. It's the website. But at the end of the day, just like we had to kinda redo our company and change our mindset and make big changes, the website is very important to this date. Right?
Kevin Daisy:And maybe that changes in the future. But right now, your website is where everyone goes to. If they're referred to you, they probably go there first. If they didn't get referred, they go looking for a solution to their problem, divorce attorney Dallas. Or let's go higher level, statute limitations in Washington state, whatever it may be.
Kevin Daisy:Does your firm show up as an authority or answer that question or not? And if not, you know, what can you do to do that? And so and and it's it's all like a a funnel. Right? So it's I got people, get asking questions and they come to me for the answer.
Kevin Daisy:I have the opportunity to be in front of them. I have a chance to convert them or at least collect some information. If not, there's other tactics you can take off the social media, retargeting, stay top of mind. But at the end of the day, we wanna make sure that your law firm or or our clients are that source of information. They're they're the expert in that field.
Kevin Daisy:If the website is poorly designed or slow or not coded properly, your chances of achieving any of that is is really hindered. And so we we do put a lot of emphasis on the website. And when we sign new clients, we're like, we're gonna rebuild the site. They're like, well, I like my site. That's cool.
Kevin Daisy:It can look just like it looks. We don't care about that. What's under the hood is gonna make the difference. And so there's a lot of technical things I could get into as far as site structure and all this stuff. That's, that's not important for this conversation.
Kevin Daisy:But your website is very, very important. And so that is up and running and optimized for all this other stuff to actually work. And so, you know, not just talking about SEO, but if you're running Google Ads. I got firms that spend $50 a month, $100 a month. If the website is not performing or it's slow or it's not relevant, you pay more per click or you paid for a lot of clicks and wasted money.
Kevin Daisy:So website, most important thing.
Davina:Number one pillar. Number one pillar.
Kevin Daisy:That's number 1. Because everything flows back to it to some degree. If you're hiring, that's where candidates go to take a look and see your culture or your firm. Why would they wanna work there? Does the website represent you from an employee standpoint as well?
Kevin Daisy:So the the website has so many different functions. From organic SEO so SEO would be the next thing. That's the biggest thing that that we do here.
Davina:Pillar number 2. Yeah. Right? Okay.
Kevin Daisy:So you can just have a website, but then you have a website that's been developed for SEO is kind of a a whole different animal. And SEO is not a one time thing as you all know, but it's a a combination of a lot of things. So it's optimization of the site to be tagged properly, authorship. I mean, little things like you're a lawyer. Your content needs to be authored by a lawyer because Google has a algorithm that came out long time ago that's for, your money, your life, which any service company that can affect someone's financial well-being, say personal injury lawyer, divorce lawyer, then they gotta go by a certain rules.
Kevin Daisy:And so you need to author your content, and there's an actual way to code that in and and show that. And most firms I look at don't even have that. So Google doesn't trust you right off the bat because it knows you're not authoring your own content. So little things that we get I can get in the weeds on. Right.
Kevin Daisy:But the organic and then content development. So content has to be produced, in a certain way. AI is a big no no. You can use AI for ideas, outlines, things like that, but your content needs to be unique. It cannot be found anywhere else where AI can go create something like it can now.
Kevin Daisy:And it can be in your tone with your expertise. And so we help clients develop content all day, every day here, where we write it for them, or we do a done with you. We do content workshops where the lawyers can produce the content with guidelines, training wheels. We optimize it. We publish it, and we can get the same results.
Kevin Daisy:Or we have firms that don't wanna do that, and they want us to do it for them. So we have to file ABA guidelines and the law and all that good stuff. So content is very important to this whole thing, but you can't just write content. What is it? What's the content for?
Kevin Daisy:What's your competition? What's the keyword difficulty? How long should the content be based on your geographic area and your competitors' content that they have? So it it just goes so much deeper than you would expect.
Davina:Right. Right.
Kevin Daisy:But at the end of the day, the good news is if you if you have someone that's good, it's easy to build that recipe. I like to say it's like baking a cake. We know how to bake a cake. I just gotta give you the the instructions. And so we can look at all these things and say, okay, you know, what's a competitor of yours down the street?
Kevin Daisy:I can look at their content, their website, their backlinks, their domain rating, the length of the content, everything, and go, okay. If we do this, we will beat them. Now how long it might take could vary, but this will work to beat them. And so we can actually put together those plans and then it's a matter of velocity. So SEO and and content, number 2, 100%.
Kevin Daisy:Number 3 is really is local. So Google business profile and, in advertising. So I'll say ads, Google advertising, and that and that Google business profile listing. Super important. Anyone find your firm, if you're definitely a localized firm, which most firms are, your your star ratings, so reviews.
Kevin Daisy:So having a review process is is super important here to have reviews on a regular basis. So we work with our clients to make sure they get reviews, put in different systems in place to make sure they're getting reviews, and and their staff are asking for reviews. And then, you know, just keeping that thing up to date is more important than you imagine. Most calls and interactions come from that listing. And people go to Google.
Kevin Daisy:They don't trust other sites at the moment. And then that Google Business Profile can be a great strategy for expansion. So you could come to me and say, hey, I wanna open an office in, you know, Dallas. Right? And we can tell you where to put that office based on research, data, competition, and say, hey, if you put it on the outskirts of Dallas, where there's not as many law firms, most of the people live in the suburbs versus being downtown.
Kevin Daisy:Now you're gonna come up more often. You're gonna have more exposure to actual where people are gonna hire you. And so instead of being competitive that you think you are, you're actually gonna be hurting yourself. So there's lots of different things there that, you know, leverage this and use it as a, expansion as well. And then, yeah, again, with the advertising.
Kevin Daisy:So we all do social media, like, organic. So we don't post for law firms, like happy Memorial Day and and those kinds of things. We do retargeting and, funnel campaigns, and we do Google advertising, LSA advertising. So that's, again, high intent. They've already looked for you or they're looking for you right now.
Kevin Daisy:Everything we do from there, you know, strive into landing pages that are very specific to that campaign and that convert them on the page. So
Davina:Yeah. So tell tell me what retargeting is.
Kevin Daisy:So retargeting would be, if you went to my website right now. Actually, you went to my podcast page probably or my website, either one. And so now when you go to Facebook or Instagram, you'll probably see me talking about, something. So, yeah, you'll you'll gonna add because we know you went to the website. We can pixel you.
Kevin Daisy:And now for the next 30 days, you'll see an ad for my business or my podcast.
Davina:Where is this guy coming from? He's following me everywhere.
Kevin Daisy:Okay. Sure. We just play we just play that kinda game on social. We don't do, like, Google or, like, the ones on, like, Fox News or CNN or those other sites. We just stay where people are gonna have their eyeballs and and actually pay attention.
Davina:And that's very powerful if you've ever had if you've ever been in social media shopper because the shirt that you looked at once keeps following you around, and finally, you're just like, I just have to buy it. That's what that's what retargeting is. So, that that's why those these four pillars seem like a lot for small firms that don't have a marketing. I can hear the solo lawyers and the small firm lawyers who don't have a marketing team going, oh my god. That sounds like a lot.
Davina:So you guys do that for people for for for firms. But if you are if you're a small enough firm that you're like, I cannot do it all right out of the gate. Where do we start, and what do we where where's the best use of our time and money?
Kevin Daisy:That is a good at
Davina:the beginning?
Kevin Daisy:Very good question. And so, yeah, traditionally, up until this past year, we've only we've only helped firms that are spending 4, $5 a month or more in what we're doing. We have recently come out with packages that we've been working on the last few months that go down to the solo firm for, like, as low as, like, 8.50 a month. So just to throw that out there. But what does that include, or what's today's solo owner do, especially if you're new and you don't really have a budget built up yet?
Kevin Daisy:For 1, get a website that at least is done professionally, not like for free or, you know, by your your neighbors.
Davina:My nephew.
Kevin Daisy:But yeah. So I'm not seeing you have to spend a lot of money. Just make it professional. I mean, this is what people are gonna see. Again, when you're brand new, the site's not gonna be used to generate organic traffic because you probably can't break into that.
Kevin Daisy:But it is gonna be there for the referrals, your friends, your family, your power base that you can go tell, hey. I'm starting my own law firm. Here's here's us. And you want that to be as professional as possible so you can start to build your brand, your personal brand, your law firm brand. And and Yeah.
Davina:Let me let me interject because Yeah. What I really wanna focus on is not the not the people who are just I'm just graduated law school. I'm opening my firm. Because I think there's a basic sort of, you know, I'll go to Wix and create a site starting point for a lot of people. I'm kinda looking at those who are they're in the mid 6 figures, and they're looking to scale over 7 figures.
Davina:So they may not have a marketing team, but now they have a point where they're ready to sort of invest in some sort of they're they have more money than they have time, and they're at that tipping point of, well, all of my personal referrals have generated all this business to date. Now it's time for me to start thinking about how do I invest in my marketing dollars. Where what they have a website, but maybe it's still at a Wix site or maybe it's something else. But what what would you say the best use of their money is at that point?
Kevin Daisy:Okay. Good. I appreciate that. So okay. Here's what I I'm gonna give the 2 different options here.
Kevin Daisy:And this is what I then I talk to any, potential client, and I'm like, I find out where they are. Where's the revenue? Where are they at in their life cycle? Do they have, you know, systems and processes? Are they running around like a chicken where their heads cut off?
Kevin Daisy:You know, where are they? And do they need the phone ring in tomorrow because they're desperate and that's the situation they're in? Or are they comfortable, kinda like more like you said, and they just wanna start working in the right direction, and they wanna invest. That's a good word to use. If if you need phone calls tomorrow because of whatever situation you could be in, then I would find someone that can help you with either Google advertising or start running LSA advertising that's local service ads.
Kevin Daisy:Those are ads that are attached to your Google business profile, and they show up at the top of your photo and the those those give you direct leads. Google will charge you per lead. You can cap a budget, and you can actually get leads coming in. Whether or not they're good, that's something you'll have to, you know, to figure out. But that's the easiest way to get some phone calls coming through.
Kevin Daisy:Google Ads would be the other great way to get, again, people looking high intent, divorce lawyer, x city. Boom. You got on the call. That's a great way to get a lead. For the others that wanna invest for the long term and start working their way towards, the promised land, then SEO is the one thing you need to start looking at doing.
Kevin Daisy:That that does start with your Google business profile because that local aspect of SEO is super important. So making sure, you know, bring someone on that can optimize your your listing, make sure you have a process in place for reviews, so that you're you're building those up because you'll you'll start to grow your local rankings. Make sure your website's connected to it. Make sure everything matches. But then when you wanna start diving in SEO is is what I would do.
Kevin Daisy:You need to develop content on your site. So that whether that's you writing it yourself and and and trying to learn as much as you can or hire someone to help you along, Getting content on the site is gonna be to kinda starting that that journey for you. And then getting links back to your site. So publications or doing, you know, digital PR, getting backlinks from maybe law firms that you're cordial with, that don't compete. There's a lot of things that you can you can do there, but you wanna start investing in that because that takes time.
Kevin Daisy:But when it when it gets there, the phone rings, the traffic comes, and you can build up each practice area over time. And so you're not relying on advertising. If you if you stop paying for ads, they stop immediately. If you can't afford that billboard anymore, it goes away. And so the organic is and I guess what we live for here.
Kevin Daisy:And so I would I would either hire someone that can do it at a a price you can afford, do it yourself, or hire a.
Davina:Let's talk about how much time because I think there's an expectation that whether it's Google Ads, local service ads, or SEO or some combination of.
Kevin Daisy:Sure.
Davina:I think one of the mistakes that I see a lot of law firm owners make is in that that are in that kind of sweet spot of we're not over 7 figures, you know, comfortable enough to have that ad budget, but we're trying to scale over that is, oh, okay. Well, it's been a month. We know. Like, I'm not 5,000 aren't running off hook. Like, how much time does it take for these sorts of things to work?
Davina:Are we talking 3 months? Are we talking 9 months? Are we talking a year? What kind of expectations should we have?
Kevin Daisy:Yeah. That's a good great question. And, yeah, I've been I've been in that position, you know, under these figures or some of the empty some figures. But, so good point. So I'll give a couple different examples here.
Kevin Daisy:So Google Ads, if you hired an agency or do yourself, I mean, you gotta set everything up and create the ads and get everything working. They can be working within a week or 2 and actually have your phone ringing or a form fill or whatever. So they're they're pretty quick. It takes about 90 days though for Google to, like, learn and and really get them optimized and humming. It's about 90 days or more, for them to be optimal.
Kevin Daisy:And then hopefully, you can make them better and better from there. So Google Ads are pretty quick to go to market. LSA ads, you do have to get approved as a firm to, you know, have to run those ads. They can do like a background check and some of the things like that. So you have to go through that process.
Kevin Daisy:It would take a couple weeks. After that, I mean, they're pretty much on and up and running, within the 1st 30 days. That can make your phone ringing right away. SEO, that's where it gets tricky. So and no one likes no one likes to talk
Speaker 2:about the answer.
Kevin Daisy:No one everyone wants the answer. Yes. I so I will say this. On average, when we have a client's okay. There there's factors here.
Kevin Daisy:If you're brand new with a brand new domain, brand new website, It can it can take few months depending on how it's done, or it can take you just years years, and you're you're just barely seeing a difference. But it feels like how aggressive you are in trajectory. And and so I'll try to make this as simple as I can. I'll give you two examples. We've had a client, a year ago that we bought a site for, but they couldn't afford content really until a little bit later.
Kevin Daisy:And so we built a nice website, started adding content slowly, a little bit per month. You know, because, again, they can't afford a lot per month. So we're adding a little bit of content here and there, and Google indexes that content maybe in in 30 days or so after it's been published. And then it it's gonna index it and things like that. But you're adding a little bit here and here and there.
Kevin Daisy:Different example, we had a client that we did a content sprint. So we wrote a ton of content. We wrote all the practice area pages, a lot of supporting information, brand new domain, brand new website, never had SEO before. And we took all of that with a a strategy and and launched it on one day. In 2 months, cases signed up, you know, tons of traffic, personal injury in Washington state, actually.
Kevin Daisy:And he came in taking more cases at this point. So within 3 months, you know, you know, and think here's here's what I'll tell people right now. If you're a firm that's been around a long time, has a large website full of content, you've been doing SEO forever. You've probably experienced a drop in business because Google doesn't like the content that was written 10 years ago, 5 years ago, even last year. The algorithm has changed.
Kevin Daisy:It wants helpful content, not SEOed keyword stuff content. So the game has changed completely. Then we had to change too. We had to change our whole process. So I can take a client right now that's never been in the game and get him leads and clients almost out the gate depending on their industry, you know, their privacy area and their competitive market.
Kevin Daisy:So it is there's more opportunity, I think, right now for the firms that haven't been playing that game. And I've seen much faster timelines. But I it's still there's still so many factors that go into it. I hate to say that, but, you know, you know, that's the last time I'm
Davina:doing it. Our expectations that it may that it that you're you're trying to get some credibility with the, an algorithm is what you're looking to do. And there are many different ways to do that. And I'll give you this you can use this phrase. This is a favorite favorite lawyer phrase.
Davina:You can say, it depends.
Kevin Daisy:It depends. And then
Davina:oh, do that. I lawyers will understand when the oh, okay. It depends. Because it really does. It really depends on how long you've been in business, how much content you've been creating consistently, what kinds of you know, if if somebody has been working on your SEA versus not, you know, all of those things.
Davina:Yeah. I wanna get some clarity on the difference between Google Ads and local service ads because I had someone explain to me that local service ads are well, we know they what they sound like, and they're you're a local service, so it's kind of a regional thing, which can be beneficial to lawyers. But somebody said to me, the difference between the 2 is that you're paying for Google ads when you're paying for pay per click. You're paying when you're doing the local service ads, you're paying with your information. The Google is basically getting that information and using that information.
Davina:So it's a difference in in what Google's getting out of it. What has been your experience between the 2?
Kevin Daisy:Sure. Sure. Yeah. Good question. So I'll cover Google Ads first.
Kevin Daisy:So Google Ads, yes. PPC, pay per click. You're paying for clicks. So, if you look at the top of Google, you'll see like the text ads. They're not visual.
Kevin Daisy:They might sometimes pull in a an image from your website. But those are usually 3 at the top. And you'll pay for the clicks. When someone clicks on it, you pay. Doesn't mean they converted.
Kevin Daisy:They don't have a clue that became a client they don't care. You're paying for the clicks. And so that has a totally different strategy on how to show up, control your budget, and keep the cost per click as low as possible. So there's definitely some some nuances there. I'll give a quick tip there is Mhmm.
Kevin Daisy:If the ad says divorce I'm gonna keep using divorce law, Dallas for some reason.
Davina:It's an easy go to.
Kevin Daisy:All my divorce lawyers in Dallas said, what's up? So I'm at the ads is if you if I search divorce lawyer Dallas, and the ad says divorce lawyer Dallas, and then it, you know, adds something else or to that like, whatever they wanna say that's unique about their firm. And I click on it, and then the landing page is all that says divorce lawyers in Dallas, and it's nice and clean, and they can just convert right there. Right? Video of the lawyer, you know, we can help you fill this out.
Kevin Daisy:That's gonna have the best chance and the lowest cost per click because it's so relevant all the way through. Google loves that. Mhmm. And so you're gonna pay less per click. And and again, there's all these tactics to get that as automized as possible.
Kevin Daisy:So that is you're paying for clicks, and they're competing with tons of people to show up. The local service ads, they show up right underneath that, and it would have your picture and your your star rating beside it, and then you click or call. So if you're on a mobile phone, you click and it just it calls automatically pretty much. If you're on a desktop, it'll take you to a page that would be all about your law firm. And everything that they need to know hopefully to call or fill out a form right there on that page.
Kevin Daisy:And so how you're paying for that, once they they call and they connect with somebody, Google's tracking that call and listening to that call. And so they know that your intake folks picked it up and they automatically then charge you $85 or $45. It depends on your market and the practice area. There's a variance in charges, and you're paid for that lead regardless if you converted them to a a a, you know, a client or not. Google charges for that.
Kevin Daisy:So they also collect that person's information and all that good stuff as well. So you're you're paying for that. But it's a
Davina:different way to look at it. With that distinction because I don't think a lot of people realize that local service ads that Google's recording that call, they're collecting that information, and that's something that I think attorneys really need to pay attention to and know that's happening, you know, with that, whereas the pay per click, it's it's not that. Kevin, we we are at a point where I know you have an appointment, and we need to end. So, why don't you tell us how we can we will include the link to the managing attorney podcast. We didn't even get a chance to talk about that, but it's a great listen.
Davina:If you like to listen to podcasts, definitely wanna go listen to that one. And tell us how we can find a Ray Digital on the interwebs.
Kevin Daisy:I appreciate that. Thanks for having me too. Yeah. Well, if you wanna return to the podcast, it's the Manjean Partners podcast. You can just Google it, to connect with me or Ray Digital.
Kevin Daisy:I'm I'm big on LinkedIn. So Kevin Daisy, d a I s e y. That's my handle on everything, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. You can find me there. And I respond.
Kevin Daisy:I don't have automation. I'm happy to have any, you know, any questions. You wanna be a guest on the podcast or if you're interested to to learn more about how we can help. Also, happy to, you know, to look at the things that we talked about, like unknowns and how much time and all that stuff. The the good news is someone that knows what we're doing can can tell you that and say, here's your situation.
Kevin Daisy:Here's what you should do.
Davina:Instead of giving you something that's a blanket that might work for some much bigger firm or something that might not work for you. Awesome. Awesome. Yes. And you and Kevin Daisy, it's wonderful you can use your name.
Davina:Try a name like Devina Frederick and see how nobody ever spells any of it right. So, good. Kevin Daisy. Alright. Well, thanks so much for being here, Kevin.
Davina:I really enjoyed our conversation.
Kevin Daisy:Thank you so much. Everyone have a good day.
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