Episode 270 How to Leverage Social Media to Scale Your Law Firm with Gianni Avalos
Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers? Ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or 2 to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love.
Intro:Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now here's Devina.
Davina:Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick. And my guest today is Gianni Avalos, a Texas family law attorney best known as single mom attorney to her social media followers. Gianni has combined following of more than 6 100,000 people on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. And she says that a whopping 98% of the firm's clients come from her single mom attorney social media accounts.
Davina:So I'm super excited to talk with her today about her brand and how she grew that following and how it's impacted her law firm businesses growth. And I know all of you are really gonna enjoy hearing her story as well. Gianni is in her 3rd year of practice and law firm ownership, and she manages a team of 10 staff members, including 4 attorneys. Her law firm works with clients in Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas Fort Worth, Texas. So please join me in welcoming Gianni Avalos to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast.
Davina:Hi, Gianni. It's good to see you. I'm glad you're here.
Gianni:Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Davina:Good. We're gonna have a good conversation today because you are your single mom attorney, Brian, is amazing, and I have so many people ask me about it and say that they follow you. And so I know that the women lawyers listening to this podcast who've been following you or even if they haven't heard about you, they're gonna hear about you today, and they're gonna go over and follow you. And they're really gonna want to because it's just a fantastic account. You have built a wonderful brand.
Davina:So I wanna start out by asking you, just tell us a little bit about your law firm and kind of, like, who you serve and where you work and all that.
Gianni:Yeah. So I practice in Texas. I practice family law, so we do divorce, child support, and custody cases primarily. And we service Dallas, Houston. We take on San Antonio and Austin cases as well.
Gianni:And we take a niche marketing approach, for our law firm in the sense that we primarily and really solely market to women and even we take the niche even further by marketing to single moms. 98% of our clients come from social media. And so, yeah, that's it.
Davina:Okay. Well, hi. So I wanna ask you this. Have you ever had pushback from anybody about niching down? Because I know I have in the past.
Davina:So I'm curious. Have you had people kind of respond negatively to that or tell you that it's not gonna work?
Gianni:A 100%. And that's actually what attracted me to your coaching services is because I saw that you also take that niche marketing approach for women. Definitely have received pushback. I'm in my 3rd year of practice as an attorney. And so definitely in the beginning whenever I was seeking mentors and they kinda found out about my page, they warned me against marketing to only women, because they also said that men are a lot of the you know, they're the breadwinners of the family, if you're if you're talking about gender normative roles.
Gianni:And so but I but whenever I was setting for the bar exam and I was waiting on my results, I read this book called the game changing attorney. And there was a chapter in there where he was talking about a DWI attorney and that he marketed as a DWI attorney of a specific highway, and they really just emphasized the idea of when you're marketing to everybody, when you're talking to everybody, you're not talking to anybody. You know? And so I definitely see that, in my law firm because the idea behind why I started marketing only to single women and single moms is because I am a single mom, and it's something that, you know, resonates with me. And it's something that I can show up as my true authentic self whenever I go on social media to market to my followers.
Davina:Right. Right. That was what I was gonna ask you next is kind of what sparked the idea to begin with. Was it had you gone through something similar yourself, a relationship breakup or divorce or whatever?
Gianni:Yeah. And, you know, whenever I first posted the video that went viral on TikTok, it was really just, like, this video montage of me setting for the bar exam with my newborn as a single mom. And I it inspired a lot of single moms, and they started following me. And at the time, I didn't understand this tool that was being created. I was just kind of like, oh, I I'm blowing up on social media.
Gianni:This is great. I'm developing this community, and we're going live on Friday nights and drinking wine and talking about our baby daddies. Right? And so, we ended up just really using that tool in my law firm and using that as our primary marketing resource. But most definitely, I am a single mom, and so whenever I go online and talk to single moms, they feel like I'm somebody that they can relate to.
Davina:Right. Right. You're now one thing that I wanna, get to get into to kind of like talk about the nuance of. So you're you're either dealing with women who are not married and needing child support from, somebody they're not married to, or you're dealing with women who may be seeking a divorce and will soon be a single mom. Right?
Gianni:Correct. Correct.
Davina:That your that your demographic. And one of the things that I think is, so interesting because I know people are always asking about social media and kind of how things work on social media. And one of the things I think you do really well, and you mentioned this, was building a community. Tell me what you think the sort of tricks or tips are to sort of build a community. Because when you build a community, you're really creating something that's even bigger than just marketing for your practice.
Davina:Right?
Gianni:Right. When you're creating a community, you really do have to show up on social media as your most authentic self. And that is where I do feel the majority of the criticism comes from, in the practice whenever people see my social media and what it is that I say and how I say things on there. Now, obviously, whenever I go to court, we use different language than what it is that we put on social media. We have a joke slogan, see your baby daddy, but it attracts women, to follow the page because that's how they refer to their noncustodial parent as I would I would refer to it in court.
Gianni:Right? So, you know, I think it's about showing up as your most authentic self. And whenever you post a video on social media, you kinda have to think about, like, what are the comments going to say? What what is it that, you know, people are going to be discussing about this video? Because that is also how you gain a lot of traction on the algorithm is you know, if I post a video about child support and a dad that is under claiming his income, I can pretty much anticipate that there are going to be a lot of single moms that comment on that video and share how that is relatable to them.
Gianni:And it creates conversation within the comment section, thus boosting the video. So it's more than just like, oh, a bunch of single moms follow me. It's like, no. They come to my page to seek inspiration, education, and just relief from what it is their day to day looks like because they go on there and say, yeah. I'm not alone.
Gianni:And that's what my page makes them feel like.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. The the I bet you get just knowing social media, the more the bigger you get, the more popular you get among your target market, the more, negative feedback you get from the other side. Right?
Gianni:How do
Davina:you sort of deal with that kind of you know, do you just do you compartmentalize or just kind of ignore it or play into it? Or how do you deal with sort of that those, you know, baby daddies who might be coming on and try and start something on your occasion, in your thread.
Gianni:You know, a wise woman once told me that some of the most successful people in this world, can withstand and stomach a lot of judgment. So thank you to my business coach. That definitely helps. So and and it's true. You know?
Gianni:I think that when you are trying to challenge the norms in your industry, you are going to be misunderstood by many and not just your industry, you are going to be misunderstood by many and not just your colleagues, but also the consumers because it's something that people aren't used to seeing. And whenever I post videos about, you know, dads paying child support, just simply saying that a dad pays child support will trigger a lot of people because it's not uncommon for a mom to have to pay child support as well. Right? And by saying that, that doesn't negate the fact that moms also pay child support, but it definitely triggers people in the comments to say, why don't you talk to why don't why why do you reference only dads? You know?
Gianni:But, obviously, like, they don't understand the niche marketing approach that our firm takes. And so, like I said, when I go on social media and I'm talking to my followers, I'm talking to a single mom.
Davina:Right. Right. And have you found you said 98% of your business comes from social media. You're on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. Right?
Davina:Correct. Yes. And have you found that to be, one of the things that I have always felt is that if you strongly attract, you also strongly repel people. And have you found that to be the case? You know, like the more targeted your message is to attract or the more targeted you are in what you're saying, the more you're getting a higher attraction and a higher, you know, repelling those people who are not your potential clients.
Gianni:I think that that is very true, but to an extent. So a lot of dads still seek our services mainly because the message is not, you know, see your baby daddy and, you know, go after everything that you have and, you know, withhold children from present fathers. Right? It's about, you know, if this is a dad that is not holding himself accountable or not letting the courts hold himself accountable, then they're going to be offended. They're going to be repelled, and they're going to be triggered because what I'm saying about those dad, if the shoe fits, then the shoe fits for them.
Gianni:Right? And which is why in my bio on Instagram, I say only deadbeats are offended here. And so the present fathers that are actually there for their children and that follow my page because they also like to seek the educational content that I put on there, they still retain our services, and they don't feel like any of the messages that I put out about, you know, deadbeats is about them. And so Right. It also kind of be somewhat of, like, a pride thing.
Gianni:Right? It's like, oh, I'm hiring single mom attorneys firm because I'm a great dad, and she believes in my case.
Davina:Yeah. I think that's wonderful because I think sometimes people get the the feeling, oh, well, you must be a man hater or something, you know, when you're targeting just women. But, really, for the right men, it's an attractive quality because then you're looking for, well, they must really get, you know, what I'm looking for, which is putting my children first and making sure that we're giving the best life and all that. So I wanna go back to talking about kind of your community building. I think one thing that I've seen you do in building community is you actually create and provide other resources besides just come hire my law firm.
Davina:So tell me about, like, some of those resources that you provide and why you you thought of them and thought this would be a good thing to do.
Gianni:So I wanted my law firm to be more than just let me help you with your legal problem kind of law firm. I wanted there to be a very empathetic approach. Whenever you talk to other family law attorneys, there's a very common theme in what they have to say about family law clients, and that's that they're very needy. And as somebody who is a single mom that had that understands what it feels like to be live in this, like, anxiety, right, of these legal issues. I can only imagine what they're going through as a layperson.
Gianni:And so I really make an effort to train my team on these core values to empathize with our clients, to educate them. And sometimes that really does look like taking an extra 30 minutes to explain a court order to them that maybe another attorney or another law firm would have just traditionally emailed and said, let me know if you have any questions.
Davina:Mhmm. So
Gianni:and then between those 2, empathizing and and educating, it definitely makes the client feel empowered. And so definitely definitely just founding my firm on those three core values. And then we also offer a tool which is our custody journal, and it's a custody journal that was written by a single mom and a single mom attorney. And so I haven't seen one of its kind yet. I know that there's some that are circulating out there, but this one was designed, with the mindset of let me use this in the event that I have to go and modify my court order, then I have a custody journal that now documents, and I've documented the inconsistencies within my coparenting relationship.
Gianni:So many people, purchase it because they're like, whatever's being asked in this custody journal is being written by an attorney that would be asking me for this later. So
Davina:Right. Right. So this is a tool that women can use to keep or parents can use to keep track of Yeah. What's going on in a relationship so that you have some some where to start when you're looking at evidence and looking at putting together a case or an argument for making changes in their arrangement and that kind of thing?
Gianni:Yes. I heard a very common theme in a lot of the consultations that I was doing, and that's just that, you know, he's inconsistent. It was always the same he's inconsistent phrase that I was hearing. And so, I I mean, I cannot go to court and just tell the judge this is an inconsistent parent. Take away time.
Gianni:Right? But if they had a journal logging every single Thursday that this parent has missed, then maybe that would warrant an argument for, you know, cutting back on the Thursdays that dad has the right to exercise because that way mom is not just on standby waiting around to see if this man is gonna show up if he never has. Right? And so it's about empowering them with this tool of, you know, it's more than just he's inconsistent. Let me show you all the times that he hasn't shown up.
Gianni:It also provides space for, you know, them to document, like, if the child outcry about something, if there were incidents, and it also holds them accountable as well. So something that they sometimes forget is that just because you are a mom does not mean that you have this, like, superior right to a child. The court is also going to expect them to have made an effort to co parent with their, you know, co parent. And so if a child comes to them and tells them that something happened at the other parent, well, they can document that in the custody journal, but there's also a space for them to write what did what efforts did they make to resolve this with their co parent before they go and take it to the court. Because that's something that's likely going to be asked, and it really puts it into perspective for them.
Gianni:Like, oh, I can't just write down what the child came and told me. It's like, now I need to go make an effort with my co parent to say, let's talk about this.
Davina:Right. Right. I think that's a wonderful tool, and I think it probably is very cathartic too for for parents to have that and sort of participate in the process and really feel really be able to think through their thoughts and articulate them in a way that makes them feel heard. Right? That's a big part of it is that you by giving you know, by them having this tool, then when they're sitting there, they're not just trying to remember when they were in a height of emotion about something.
Davina:They're saying, well, let me show you. And then that way, you can really, as their attorney, hear what it is that they're saying and and read it and understand it. Right?
Gianni:Correct. Yeah. Definitely. So I definitely strive to make them feel seen, make them feel heard. And the more knowledge that they have, the more documenting that they've done definitely empowers them to do so.
Davina:Right. Right. So I wanna talk about how, you know, 98% of your clients coming from social media is huge. So there's some questions that I have that I think other people are gonna have for you too is, first, I can hear a lot of women law firm owners saying, oh my god. How do I how do I use social media?
Davina:How do I do that? That looks like so much work. You're on 3 platforms. And if anybody follows your channel, you could tell that you're you're not just throwing something off the hip. You're thoughtfully thinking about what you're going to post.
Davina:There's a strategy behind it, and then you're creating. And and and if anybody's tried to make videos and edit videos, you know, you could tell that there's a creativity in the process. So tell us kind of how how you develop that expertise and why I mean, it seems like it comes naturally to you. Like, it's naturally someplace. You mentioned your first video was just something that you naturally did because you just were sharing your story.
Gianni:Yeah. Most definitely. So it depends on how you want to show up on social media as an attorney because there's also nothing wrong with showing up on social media as an attorney that doesn't share anything about their personal life, that is really just there to provide educational content and resources to followers. But, for me, it's more than just educational content. It can be entertaining content.
Gianni:It can be inspirational content. And so what that means is that I can post some a 60 second video talking about, you know, guideline child support, and then my next video could be a day in the life of a single mom attorney. And then the the video after that could be some funny meme about a dad that is, you know you know, saying that he lost his job the day before his child support court. So
Davina:Yeah.
Gianni:It really just varies. People go onto my page for different reasons, but I would just say that don't try to force content that you don't that doesn't feel like you because that is where I mean, you really don't have a lot of time on social media to catch somebody's attention, and they're going to be able to, you know, catch on if you're not showing up as your most authentic self. If what you're putting out feels fake to them or you're trying to attract an audience that you really don't relate to, they're gonna be able to capture
Davina:that. Right. So if this so in other words, if somebody and I'll say this. If somebody, tries to mimic you, they go, oh, this work for a single mom attorney. So now I'm gonna go do something like that because that that likely is not going to come off the same way.
Davina:It's gonna it's gonna look different and sound different because it's not who they authentically are. Even if they think some of the same things, the way that you present is unique to you. You know?
Gianni:Correct. I've definitely, experienced that. I was one time doing this, like, little let me go on the street and ask people questions, family law questions, and it got some traction. And, you know, I've seen other people kind of try to, like, mirror that sometimes even with, like, my same script. And it doesn't have the same kind of response because also you have to ask yourself, like, you're putting this content out there, but who is following you?
Gianni:When I put out content, I'm designing the content to speak to who my followers are. I know who my followers are. I know what it is that they want me to post about, and so I know that it's gonna get traction.
Davina:Now I know too with social media, it's like initially when you and I were talking, you were saying, you know, I'm getting people from all over the country reaching out to me. And that was that's, you know, that's a that was a problem you had to solve. It was a good problem, but it was a problem you had to solve because you are licensed in Texas. And so we were talking, talking about sort of how to handle that because initially, you were kind of just taking consults. Anybody who wanted to talk to you, you were sort of had yourself open to that to to help people.
Davina:But what did you do to sort of, narrow your focus to Texas and sort of raise your profile among women in Texas?
Gianni:Yeah. So whenever we first started, I I definitely was consulting with anybody in Texas, but there were a lot of those consultations that wouldn't I wouldn't be able to convert to cases because we we're only serving Houston and Dallas at the time. And so now I have, restricted my consultation bookings to only, consult with individuals that are in the counties that we service, and those counties are outlined within, like, the Calendly description of what they're about to book. Right? I do sometimes put up a link that allows for other people only in Texas to consult with me.
Gianni:Now it is kind of a it's considered an out of county consult, so it is, priced higher because I know that I'm not going to get a different kind of return on that consultation. But also it's about, you know, understanding that maybe I can't provide to them the service of a consultation and providing the service of representing them in court, but I can provide educational content on the page that is going to speak to them and that is going to apply to them so long as they are in Texas. But, yes, I do get a lot of people from all over the country, and the unfortunate part is just like if they call, then we try to provide them with the referral. My, law firm has this, like, referral, bank so that the intake knows, okay. Well, if somebody calls from Arizona, like, Gianni wants us to send them the link to this attorney.
Gianni:And oftentimes, it's like a mutual referral, you know, just relationship between me and that law firm. And, I mean, nobody's really getting compensated a referral fee or anything, but it's like, hey. This person is also on social media. They support my page, and I want to send them business.
Davina:Right. Right. And I'm sure that works, you know, the other way too. May not maybe not from that firm, but maybe from another firm. It's just growing that network for sure.
Davina:You have you have grown your team significantly in the last year. And one of the challenges that a lot of women law firm owners struggle with is they think my clients want to hire me. And so they see Gianni on social media, and they go, well, I'm going to hire Gianni. And that was something that you had to deal with because now you have a number of attorneys who work for you, and you are not the one who's handling a lot of the cases. A lot of the cases go to people on your team.
Davina:So how do you handle that with people who've been following and they're absorbing your brand, and then they come, they think they're gonna get you? How do you kind of handle that and sort of spread that brand Yeah. Goodwill to your lawyers who work for you?
Gianni:I think a lot of it has to do with how you speak about your services on social media. So whenever I first started, it was a lot of, like, I did this. I do that. Come to me. I can help you, as opposed to now, it's like my team this, we did that, you know, we offer whatever.
Gianni:And so it's about, you know, talking about your services that way so that way they know that whenever they call to retain your firm, it's not an I. It's not a solo effort. It's a, you know, it's a team effort. And I did go through trial and error with that. There was a point in time in the past year where I really wanted to when I first started my law firm, it was law office of Gianni Cialalos.
Gianni:Right? And then I was like, okay. Well, let me just completely embody this single mom attorney brand. And I changed everything to single mom attorney, and, you know, we started doing, like, the DBA single mom attorney. Right?
Gianni:But I realized that that was somewhat of a disservice, you know, not only to the clients, but also to my team because single mom attorney sounds very singular. It does still sound like a solo effort. So we, rebranded to Avila's Family Trial Attorneys, and that's been really great. I've been showcasing my, the work of my team more on my page, and that's definitely helped as well. So that way, they know, like, you know, if they want to retain our services and they want the kind of result that this client had that I am now sharing on social media, I am, you know, kind of, like, praising the team or the attorney that works towards achieving that result, that judgment.
Gianni:So that way, they know it's okay if Gianni is not gonna be on my case because I came to her because I saw this testimonial on the her page for this, and it was her talking about one of the attorneys that she had.
Davina:Right. Right. I wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about your your growth because you're a fairly new attorney. Yeah. And you started your law firm as a new attorney.
Davina:And you it was you and a a you for a while and you and an assistant. And then in the last year, you've really grown your team quite a bit and grown your law firm. You've grown jurisdictions, offices in different locations. There's a lot of growth that's happened in the last year. What do you, what do you think sort of spawned that desire for you to grow and not just be a solo?
Gianni:I think that I wanted to be able to service more people. I wanted to create a firm that is founded on why I started doing family law and why I started practicing family law and what I the expectations of the firm that I built whenever it was just me. Right? But I realized that I am only one person, and I wanna be able to have a positive impact on more clients. And in order to do that, I was going to have to hire more attorneys.
Gianni:And, you know, also, a massive benefit to hiring more attorneys is, you know, you have more freedom to yourself. There's a higher income. You can provide better benefits to your staff. And, you know, it's just it's great to to build a firm that is now touching different areas of Texas. So, definitely, I think that one of my first words to you whenever I hired you was, like, I'm young, and I don't know what I'm doing.
Gianni:So please help me. Because
Davina:I You obviously know what you're doing because you've done a fantastic job. You you already had single mom attorney before we started working together. So you already had a great vision, and I think you are a wonderful visionary as you and I've talked about before. And and you had already had gone to trial a lot and had a lot of, you know, experience doing, you know, doing things yourself. How has it felt to sort of have other lawyers working for you sort of going to trial and you devoting more time to consultations, meeting with clients, growing the business, that kind of thing?
Davina:Have it has it have you had, like, any sort of emotional, like, struggle with that, or did it sort of come naturally to you?
Gianni:I I definitely struggled with it in the beginning. I think that I always had this idea of what a lawyer looked like every day, what they were doing every day. And seeing myself work on the business and not in the business did oftentimes make me feel a little bit lesser of a lawyer, like like, lesser of a lawyer. Right? But the more I think about it and the more that I've really sat down to see what my firm has become, the more I realized that there is a necessary position in this firm that requires only me to fill.
Gianni:Right? And that is to bring in the clients, do the marketing. And it would not only be a disservice to the clients for me to jump in and manage their cases with everything that we have going on, but it would also be a disservice to the team that I hire. Every employee expects for, you know, a workplace to be efficient and operating with systems. And it you know, you can't just go and hire, like, 10 new employees in a year and give them a couple of softwares and say good luck.
Gianni:You know? It's it it doesn't work that way because we are mainly we really are only virtual. And so it does pose an issue of the more people that you hire, like, whenever it was just me and my assistant, we would just text each other. We didn't even have Microsoft Teams. Now it's like, we need Teams.
Gianni:We need Monday. We need Cleo. We need all these things. You know? And had I not really taken myself out of the practice of law throughout this past year to focus on the systems, I don't think that we would be operating as efficiently.
Gianni:And when you don't operate efficient efficiently, it creates a smaller bandwidth to take on more clients.
Davina:Mhmm. Absolutely. And you are really careful about hiring too in terms of making sure that you're hiring people who really get your core values. They really align with your core values. You look for people who are empathetic and who with your target market and really want to make your clients feel empowered.
Davina:That's a big part of your hiring process, isn't it?
Gianni:For sure. I've definitely turned down qualified candidates just because it might not be a good personality fit, whether that's with the team or whether that's with I can already tell that their demeanor is not going to be seen as what you know, it doesn't fit it's not part of the brand. The clients aren't going to like their assertiveness. You know? And so I really am looking for somebody that is going to embody those core values, whether you're intake, whether you're a paralegal, whether you are working on the back end, an admin, in systems, or even just whether you're an attorney.
Gianni:Right? So definitely looking for somebody that can empathize and looking for somebody that is going to have the patience. So whenever we talk about the core value of educating our clients, it requires somebody that is going to have the patience to sit down with them and educate this layperson on the legalese that they're not going to understand within 5 minutes. Right? And whenever we talk about, empowering them, it means that I need to hire experienced people.
Gianni:So all of our paralegals are board certified. They all have 10 plus years of experience. And at my law firm, when it comes to attorneys, like, you really cannot work here unless you've had a couple of years under your belt working in family law. You already speak the language, and I can send you into a hearing and not really have to worry too much about that. Right?
Gianni:And with intake as well, I get a lot of people that apply because they believe in the brand, they believe in the mission, but they've never worked in a family law firm. So to me, it's about just having people that have the experience that can empathize and that are going to have the patience.
Davina:Right. Right. What do you think your biggest challenges have been in the last year as you've kind of catapulted in your growth? What what are some of the things that you think, you know and now that you look back, what would have been some of the challenges and, you know, things that you've overcome?
Gianni:Yeah. I think catapulted is the right word. So, you know, multiplied our numbers by 5 in the past year. So it's been an incredible growth. I can't even express what it is that I feel, like, considering where I was last year.
Gianni:But the challenge is the rate of growth. So it's just not common for somebody to be in their 2nd year of practice with a paralegal and saying, I'm gonna run a little family law firm, and then go into their 3rd year of practice running this operation of a firm that now touches, you know, different areas of Texas with different staff. And the biggest challenge for me in the past year has been staffing. So it's about satisfying the hiring needs of the firm and catching on of a hiring need before it presents itself as a need. And so before, I mean, somebody thinks I need to hire somebody, you know, because I have cases that need to be worked.
Gianni:And now it's about I need to hire somebody before those cases come to my firm because I need somebody twiddling their thumbs in the meantime until this next wave of, you know, clients is gonna come in. And it's to the point now where I, thank god, just already know when the business is gonna come in, how it's gonna come in. Like, I've been able to, like, kind of detect those patterns by whenever you ask me to create a run rate. That definitely helped, be able to see what those patterns are throughout the year. Right?
Gianni:But it's about just staffing people in time because I know that if I don't do that, then things happen. And then if your staff starts to feel overwhelmed like, thankfully, I have a very loyal staff, but it's a disservice to them if I don't have them the team that they need to take on the cases I'm bringing in.
Davina:Right. How have you how do you feel you've grown as a leader in that time? Because I know that's one of the things that a lot of women law firm owners there. They're used to functioning solo and sort of doing, and your leadership is, like, telling your paralegal I need this. Go do that.
Davina:Right? But it's much different when you have multiple people, including other attorneys working for you. How do you, you know, how you manage and lead that? Has that been something that's been a challenge for you, or you think that's I I've I've seen you grow as a leader over the over time for sure. But tell me about your feelings about that.
Gianni:Yeah. The first time I ever had to fire somebody, I was, like, freaking out and calling you like, I don't know what to do.
Davina:Now,
Gianni:It's about just understanding, like, the importance of your leadership skills, you know, because the team feels supported whenever they have a good leader that recognizes that they need to grow as a leader, that there's always opportunity for you to grow as a leader. It definitely it's definitely been a learning experience throughout the past year just because I consider myself, like, a very direct person, so I've definitely worked on the way that it I express things to my staff. I I've worked on communication, so there's been times where I just kinda wanna, like, let things go and be like, okay. Well, it'll kinda solve itself, or I'm just gonna not address it. And, you know, holding myself accountable to being like, no.
Gianni:I should probably set up a meeting with them and address it. And so that way, it's water under the bridge, and I've taken care of it. You know? So it's about putting yourself in uncomfortable situations, honestly. Like, if leadership does not come naturally to you and you have all of those people working for you, it can get uncomfortable.
Gianni:But forcing yourself to do it and grow in it will definitely make you a better leader over time.
Davina:Yeah. For sure. I think even if you think you're a good leader, I still think there's a lot of lessons to learn in leadership itself. When you're actually day to day doing it in a law firm, it's very different from, like, being a leader in the community or being a leader of a a volunteer organization. You know, much different when it's a business and you have business goals that you're balancing, client needs that you're balancing, and then also the needs of your employees.
Davina:You want to create a culture or an environment where they thrive and it's slow drama and, you know, the right people are attracted to it and all of those things. And I think that's a that's a challenge because it we're at a time when it's a little tough to hire too. And so you have to sort of pick through personalities and make sure they're gonna be a good fit and that kind of thing. Have you had, have you sort of learned some things about your through your hiring? I know you said firing, you know, was tough the first time you did it, and I think that's the case for a lot of people, especially if you're empathetic person.
Davina:You know, it hurts. We hurt our own feelings when we have to fire some people sometimes. But how about hiring? Do you think you have what are some of the things you think that you've sort of improved on in your hiring abilities over time?
Gianni:You know, I wish I was really good at it still, but I I still feel like it's presented itself to be the biggest challenge in my firm right now. I think maybe some of it also has to do with people knowing that if they're gonna come work for me, you're not coming to work for an attorney that has 20 years of experience. You know? But it's about really showing them what it is that our firm has to offer and really highlighting the benefits of working at our firm. It's more than just coming to a firm and getting a, you know, health insurance and a virtual workspace.
Gianni:It's about becoming a part of something that is bigger and that is challenging the industry norms, and they like to be a part of that. It's also about working for a firm that is tech forward. So I think that if you can really sit down and look at how is my firm different from the other law firms in the area. Right? And selling people on that just like it is that we sell people on our services, it'll definitely help in satisfying your hiring needs.
Davina:Right. Right. Do you find do you think your social media has helped you attract employees as well?
Gianni:Yeah. I definitely think so. Some of my strongest employees, have been hired because they saw a position that I posted on social media. So I definitely think that that helps. I also definitely think that, like I said, my social media is controversial, and some people may not get the message.
Gianni:Or, really, if you're just looking at my social media for the first time because you applied for a job, right, They they may not really understand and see it for what it is if had they been following it for quite some time, right, and understanding why it is that we say certain things or post certain things on our page. But, I recently had a a new attorney that I hired, and, you know, she comes from this, like, very prestigious firm with board certified attorneys. And, you know, I was able to hire her because I'm selling her on the systems and the efficiency and the work the virtual workplace. And, whenever she sat down for the interview with me, she was like, oh, I didn't know that I was, interviewing with you. Like, I've seen your stuff on my TikTok and social media.
Gianni:And I guess in my mind, I'm always like, okay. Well, that could be a good thing. That could be a bad thing. I don't know what it is that she believe like, what she thinks about that page. Right?
Gianni:And, in the end, she ended up accepting the position, and it's been really great. But one thing that she did share with me was that a lot of people have been asking her what it is what's it like to work for me? And so she said that she's just really impressed with the operation that we're running, and she's, like, was telling me that it was it's like a law firm that, you know, she like, she's never really seen something with such sophisticated systems and workflows and all of that. So I was just really proud because she said that I definitely held myself to a higher standard and was above my years in maturity and running a law firm. And so yeah.
Davina:Yeah. That's a wonderful that's a wonderful endorsement and for somebody to, say that about the opportunity to work with you. Because I think a lot of people right now are searching for attorneys to work with them, and they're not really they're they're doing it based on sort of, benefits and compensation packages and things like that. And while you offer, you know, that as well, there's, I think people who have a a movement. Right?
Davina:That they can galvanize people around, have a stronger are gonna attract those, stronger employees that are gonna resonate with that. Right? Have you talking about that and sort of, like, your number of years of experience and everything, have you had any pushback or sort of negativity around, well, you know, you've only been practicing a few years or, like, who do you think you are kind of thing. Right? Have you had that sort of, you know, vibe from people at all?
Davina:Like, maybe you're too doing too much too fast and all that kind of stuff. And how do you feel about that and respond to that?
Gianni:The results speak for themselves. You know what I mean? And I whenever I was first hiring for my first associate, I did reach out to mentors that, you know, I really trusted, but many of them the majority of them told me to not do it because I was not ready to hire an associate. At that point, I was in my it was, like, still maybe in my 1st year of practice, or it was a little bit later on in my it was, like, my 2nd year of practice. And, I did it anyways because I hired you, and you said I could do it and whatnot.
Gianni:And it gave me the confidence, and so I was like, okay. Let me do this. Because for me, they weren't seeing what I was seeing. So Right. All we were seeing was a young attorney that just graduated law school that has a few TikTok followers and, you know, people wanna hire her.
Gianni:But I was seeing a need in my law firm for I need somebody because I I can't take on all these cases, and I'm so I'm actually not taking on clients because I cannot I'm at my capacity. So just like any other law firm would say, we have more cases than we know what to do with. Let me hire another attorney. They were not seeing that. You know?
Gianni:Right. And whenever I was first, interviewing for my 1st associate, I remember interviewing this one attorney, and she asked me. She said, what well, this is your billable hours requirement. What if you don't have that many cases that come in? And I quickly knew that she wasn't the one for me, but I said, a lot of people are going to really think that I am not ready to hire an attorney just based off of my age and my years of practice.
Gianni:But when people want to challenge me on that or when they question me on that, I just always remind myself that they don't see the numbers that I'm seeing. They don't see the run rate that I'm seeing. There's times when we get, like, 4 cases in a day. And so how does that not pose a hiring need in a law firm? Right?
Davina:That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I think that's I think that's, I think that is one of the things that's kind of unique about you as a person is that you really are a natural visionary. So you're somebody who came into this with a dream and a vision, and I think it came together. I think it surprised you as much as anyone that it came together so fast.
Davina:And then you really had a need, but because of these kind of negative, you know, people saying, well, should you do this? You just you're a baby lawyer yourself. What are you doing? Or whatever. Like and, and I think that was one of the things we we talked a lot about at the beginning is, like, well, you know, you you have a a business need.
Davina:Like you said, you have a business need. So the worst that can happen is you do it, and then the cases aren't there. And then you okay. Well, that didn't work. Right?
Davina:But I think you had a a real confidence based on what the numbers you were seeing and what you were seeing as far as case flow that Yep. The work was coming, and it needed to be done. And you knew that if you hire the right people, that that could that could be done well, and Yeah. And that you would be able to help a lot more people who really need good attorneys, right, to handle their to handle their cases. So I I wonder, I think I think a lot of people listening would go, oh my god.
Davina:Like, I would even if they've been practicing 7, 8, 10 years or whatever, they're listening to this, and they may be going, oh my god. I'd be freaking out if I grew that fast in a year. What and and and they would say, that sounds like scary growth. What is it that sort of helps you to kind of because I know there's always some fear of, you know, when there's risk involved. What is it that helps you sort of put that in perspective so that you can keep moving forward?
Gianni:I just my I see I look at my law firm now, and then I look at where it was a year ago. And I I look at it of where do I want it to be in a year or 2, 5 years. And the vision that I have for my firm, I know, is very exciting. And I know that I want to get there sooner than I mean, I wish I was there yesterday. Right?
Gianni:But it doesn't work that way. But what I do know is that if I can allow the growth to happen at the rate that it's naturally occurring, then it's going to help me achieve that vision that I have for my firm a lot sooner than later. And, you know, a lot of that vision is just helping other single moms, helping them at an affordable rate, creating resources for them upon becoming a client that other law firms haven't really seen a need for because they don't understand the humanity part of their cases. You know? And that is something that I really always, you know, challenge myself to look at this case.
Gianni:Like, what is the humanity aspect of this, and what is it that we can give to this client beyond just let me show up to your temporary orders hearing. You know? Can we provide them with articles and resources to with information that is going to cut down on the correspondence billing at our firm? You know? And so we implement systems for that.
Gianni:And, yeah, I mean, it's just I like doing things that other people haven't really thought about doing, and I wanna do that faster than anybody can. So
Davina:Right. I love that. I love that. And I think you're very conscientious of the relationship aspect and the relationship that makes them well beyond their case because you know the impact that'll have on referrals and modifications and, I mean, all kinds of things that are that are going to, you know, continue. So it's very much a high touch experience, not just transactional.
Davina:It sounds like. Right?
Gianni:Yes. For sure. I do try to make this like a customer service. Like, there really is a customer service aspect to providing legal services to clients. You know?
Gianni:I think that the market can be very saturated. Right? And what is stopping this person from hiring me, or, you know, hiring another law other law firm, and what is causing them to hire me? And you really have to ask yourself that. And if you can set yourself apart you know, forget about social media, but you set yourself apart as a law firm that just provides good customer service.
Gianni:You know? You call people back within 48 hours because that's a policy that you've now implemented into your firm or, you know, it's whenever you go to a mediation, like, there's a requirement to call the client and talk to them for, like, you know, at least 15 minutes to explain what they can expect. Like, that is all providing customer service to a client, and being able to implement that is very, very important. You you really have to recognize that there's a need for
Davina:it. Right. Right. And I think it's about understanding how how your employees make you money. I mean, you really have to understand how your employees may a lot of a lot of attorneys as they're growing their firm, they're thinking, oh, this this is gonna be an expense.
Davina:How can I afford to pay this expense? And they don't think about how much money are they going to make me.
Gianni:Right. And that was very eye opening to me because mean, I could sit down and say, okay. Well, this person has a billable hours requirement of x, and I I, you know, bill them out at x amount. And, you know, this is how much their salary is going to be. Right?
Gianni:But when you actually see that money coming in as it's supposed to because I've also implemented, like, somewhat of a different billing system for our clients. And so I would wanna say that at least 90 to 95% of our billables are actually collected because of the system that we've implemented. And it's incredible. Yeah. I mean, you do have to recognize that when you hire other attorneys, when you hire other staff, especially billable staff, if that's the the, billing structure that you have in your law firm, it is going to just if you do it the right way, it's going to create more revenue, more profit.
Davina:Right. Right. Alright. Before we wrap up, tell me what you what advice you would have for well, 2 different things. What advice you would have for a law firm owner who wants to start building their brand on social media?
Davina:So that's my first question. And then the second question is what advice you would have for a woman law firm owner who who has a vision and wants to scale their business? Based on your experience in the last year or 2, what what advice would what would you tell them?
Gianni:So as far as if you wanna show up on social media, the advice that I have for you would be to determine why it is that you're doing it. Right? Like, kind of figure out your why as they call it. That's going to allow you to show up as your most authentic self and figure out how it is that you're incorporating your why with your practice area and the services that you provide. And talk to people on social media like they're people.
Gianni:You know? Talk to people, like, understanding that they did not go to law school. Speak to them like a layperson and, you know, give them content that they can wrap their brain around within, like, 60 seconds. Not everything needs to be a 3 minute video with bad lighting, and that's not gonna hit the algorithm. You know, I've seen that.
Gianni:And I'm like, I get what you're going with it, but you've already lost people's attention. You know? And so, and then I guess the second part is, like, if you're a woman that wants to scale a law firm, just don't let the imposter syndrome get to you. It's something that I still struggle with, and it's something that's really important. And it's unnecessary to identify if you are, you know, overcoming it because it's going to hinder your growth.
Gianni:It's going to hold you back. And in order for you to scale, it's just a requirement that you're gonna have to hire. And if you're going to hire, you need to show up as the best leader that you can, and some the best leader that you can be is going to require you to have that confidence to lead and understand that you deserve a seat at that table because you're showing up and doing everything else that requires for you to be at that table. So definitely show up as your most authentic self and believe in yourself.
Davina:Right. That's wonderful advice. One one last thing that popped to my mind is I would like to hear how when you and I first met, there you were thinking about hiring a coach, and it's it's an investment to hire a coach. Yeah. What what did you, what do you think coach the coaching experience has done for you?
Gianni:It is just it's revolutionized my my life, my firm, everything. I mean, with no exaggeration, Divina's not paying me to say this. I promise, guys. It's for them. It it really has.
Gianni:Like, I somebody called me yesterday and was asking me because I they started listening to your podcast, and I said, yeah. I mean, absolutely. I 100% recommend Divina and everything that she's done for me. But the reason I think that if I could if there's the the biggest takeaway that I got in the past year, and I've renewed my contract with you now, but it's systems. People don't understand how crucial systems and operations are.
Gianni:It's more than just let me hire somebody and put them on my payroll. There has to be, like, an ecosystem of systems within your law firm, and that's going to help you operate the most efficiently. And when you're especially if you're a 1st generation attorney like me and you're a lot of this is just unknown to you, it definitely helps to hire a coach to guide you through what it is that your firm is going to require. And then also a coach helps you see things from an objective perspective. They're not in your law firm every day, but when you come to them with the issues that you are, experiencing in your firm at that accountability meeting, they're able to say, well, why haven't you thought about the I mean, like, why why wouldn't you do this?
Gianni:Right? And it's like, well, yeah, that's actually a really good idea. I don't know why that's a solution to my problem. And if you don't do it, and then the next time you meet with them, it's like, well, why didn't you do it? And as opposed to just, like, leaving it on a to do list and then not having to ever answer to it.
Davina:Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, in my own experience in having coaches, I that that mindset piece, perspective piece, it's hard when you're in the you're in the trenches day to day of your business, and you're kind of seeing these conversations going back and forth.
Davina:And this problem and that problem and having somebody who's kind of been there, done that, and is an outside observer. I know that helped me tremendously in, like, I used to think of things this way. And then I had I've had different coaches through the years, and I and then having that input, it's like, oh, well, that hadn't occurred to me. Let me think about it that way. So I I I I can see that, and I'm glad I've really enjoyed working with you.
Davina:It's always fun to work with somebody who has a big vision, and I found that to be the case with you. You definitely have a big vision, and you're also the key thing is you're willing to put the work in to achieve the vision. A lot of people have big visions or big dreams, and then they don't do sort of the hard not just like the work day in and day out, but also the emotional work. Right? The mental emotional work that goes into something because that's really the you're changing as a person.
Davina:It's little self development that goes along. It's one thing a business does for you is it helps you develop. You know, it help it's this big self it's a real expensive, big self development thing when you're running
Gianni:a business. It requires a lot of grit and endurance. You know, you have to do things when you're too tired and you have to show up even when you don't want to for your team. And I was overhearing a couple attorneys. One of my attorneys talked to the new attorney, and she was like, one thing that you need to know about Gianni is that if she has an idea, it's gonna happen overnight and then the policy is gonna the policy is gonna be implemented the next day.
Davina:So I'm like Literally, it's gonna happen overnight for you. I've seen it I've seen it happen. You have a brainchild and then next thing you know, you've given birth to it. Yeah.
Gianni:I'm like, let me roll this out overnight. Yeah.
Davina:Gianni, it was great. It was great talking with you and interviewing you. I always enjoy our conversations. I appreciate you being on the podcast because I know a lot of people are going to really enjoy hearing your story and be inspired by it. So thanks so much for being here.
Davina:Thank you for having me.
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