How to Overcome Performance Anxiety
Hi, and welcome to wealthy woman
lawyer podcast. I'm your host to
be in Frederick. And I'm super,
super excited today to have
inkelaar onset. As our guest,
Angola is a professional artist
and opera singer and performer
she still has an active career.
And she also is a therapist and
a board certified coach. I'm
particularly excited about this
because you're probably thinking
to yourself, Oh, why do we have
an opera singer on Welcome on
your podcast? Well, we're gonna
dive into that and you're going
to be pleasantly surprised.
She's also the author of
courageous artistry. And I'm
super excited to dive in and
start talking with her. Welcome,
Angela.
Thank you, Davina. I'm so
excited to be here.
So tell us a little bit about
courageous artistry and what you
do now. So we can sort of put it
in the right frame of mind
before we go back and sort of
dig into your journey to get
here.
Sure, let's not leave your
audience hanging as to why an
opera singer is on the law.
Right? I founded my coaching,
practice courageous artistry,
because I believe that we are
all performers in some way,
shape, or form. And we all have
areas of our professional lives
and our personal lives as well
in which we need to perform. Yet
many of us are not taught these
skills. So for example, when I'm
working with attorneys, they
have an immense body of
knowledge and so much training
under their belts, and what
oftentimes they're missing or
what I know that a lot of people
are missing unless it comes very
naturally to them, which I think
those folks are rather few and
far between is how do we present
ourselves to the best of our
abilities. So we could sort of
put this under the umbrella of
public speaking in a way or
performing. And we all need to
learn how to be courageous
artists within our own lives.
Because as an attorney, many of
you know your your clients and
people you've worked with in the
past and yourself as well, I'm
sure have been put in situations
where we have the knowledge we
need in the preparation we need.
But then suddenly, our system,
our body and our emotions, and
our mind goes haywire. And we
show up to an event whether
that's in the courtroom or in
client negotiations, in a job
interview, perhaps even giving a
speech somewhere presenting
something. And we realize that
we that all the knowledge and
preparation didn't necessarily
help us. And we walk off that
stage or out of that courtroom
feeling like oh, my gosh, I
didn't present myself the way I
wanted to present myself. And
that can be from a physical or
vocal standpoint. But
oftentimes, it manifests as
anxiety within the system. And
then the anxiety sets up a
domino effect, and affects how
we are able to speak how we were
able to stand, move our bodies
in the space, whether we can
make eye contact or not. Whether
we can focus enough and stay
concentrated enough, which also,
interestingly, has to do with
anxiety, to remember the salient
points that we're going to make.
I definitely had that experience
more than one occasion, having
having a situation where I, you
know, I thought I've prepared
for something. And then And then
somebody was present that took
me by surprise. And I started
having that anxiety attack and
the meltdown and everything that
I thought I was gonna say didn't
come out the right way. Yeah, I
know what that is like. And
there are many, many ways that
attorneys experienced that.
Before we get into that, because
I definitely do want to dive a
lot deeper into that topic. I
want people to get to know a
little bit more about you. And
how does an opera singer wind up
being a therapist and a board
certified coach, what was the
journey there? Did you always
know you wanted to be an opera
singer? Or did you grow up in
that environment? Or,
or? Yes, yes. I always knew I
wanted to be an opera singer. I
always knew I wanted to be some
type of classical singer. Within
the realm of opera. There's also
concert singing, and I you know,
it's sort of you are trained as
a classical singer, and you end
up doing a lot of opera. So when
I was younger, all I wanted to
do was sing, and I wanted to go
to school for singing. And I was
always interested in classical
music over popular forms of
music. And so I went to college
and got a bachelor music degree
and I moved to Germany, Germany,
which many people don't know, is
a hub of opera. It has many,
many, many, I mean, dozens upon
dozens of state funded opera
houses and theaters. And so it's
really a great place for opera
singers to work because you can
be hired as an employee, you
have benefits, you have paid
vacations. It's a very humane
way of, of doing the arts. So I
moved to Germany and I lived
there for a decade and sang
opera, and then some things
change and shifted in my life.
And I decided to move back to
the states in my early 30s. And
I got a master's in voice
because I was sort of biding my
time figuring out what do I want
to do next I want to go into the
realm of teaching voice and
becoming a professor faster. I
had already been teaching
private singing lessons for a
very long time. But I soon found
that wasn't really where my
heart lay. And so I decided I'd
always been interested in
psychology. And I had been sort
of that person in my community
and group of friends and family
that people would confide in,
people would say, Oh, I have to
talk over something, oh, you
should go talk to English, she,
she's a good listener, she gives
good advice. So I enrolled in a
Master's of mental health
counseling, Master of Arts in
mental health counseling to
become a therapist. And I found
I really loved it. And it really
suited a whole other side of my
skill set. And something that I
had noticed when I was in all of
my years as a professional full
time musician, was how often it
would happen that I would see
colleagues in rehearsal,
everybody would be singing
beautifully, feeling calm, doing
fine. And then we would start
amping up to the you know,
opening night. And you would see
certain colleagues, in dress
rehearsals and rehearsals that
were much closer to the premier
start to really crumble. And I
could tell right away, it had
nothing to do with our vocal
technique, it didn't have
anything to do with their
training or abilities, it had to
do with their mind and their
emotions, and how that was
manifesting them. So I would see
this all the time and think to
myself, Oh, gosh, I wish I wish
so and so could get help with
this because he or she is such a
gifted artist. And they're
really not able to show anything
close to their best when they
get on stage for those first
performances. So for a long
time, I had been pondering this
topic, how do we deal with our
anxiety, what are ways in which
we can support ourselves. And I
sort of left that to the side, I
became a therapist thought I
would just work with a quote
unquote, regular normal
population of people, which I
did for many years. And then I
had people in the arts community
that I know because I still
perform actively.
Call me late at night, text me
late at night, hey, you know
what this is like, and your
therapist help. And I started
seeing a real need for helping
people with stage fright, and
performance anxiety. And I
looked around and saw there's
not really official sources of
help that we can go to for this.
Oftentimes, we go to mentors,
and they might give us some good
advice, but they're not trained
in this. So I just saw a great
opportunity to combine my two
greatest passions and skill sets
into a coaching practice that
could work with all sorts of
professionals. So first, I
started working with performers
because that was the my market
and where I had most of my
connections in network. And then
it just so happened as these
things do, you know, things
sometimes sort of come and fall
in your lap in a way I have in
my life here. A lot of friends
who are attorneys, actually,
women attorneys, and a lot of
them would say to me at cocktail
parties or parties are out of
the blue, oh, my gosh, your
skills would be so useful for
attorneys too. So it had been
kind of percolating in the back
of my mind. And then the
universe just kept speaking to
me loud, more and more and more
loudly. And I shifted my
business to work with all sorts
of different professionals. So
I've helped, you know, people in
the corporate world prepare
speeches, you know, for their
company, I have helped attorneys
with all sorts of different
things, job interviews,
courtroom presence, I have
contracts with different the
public defender's office here in
my state to do different
trainings on things like how do
we be confident and well spoken
and make a connection over zoom?
Because that's a whole other
thing as well. It's not just
about the technology, but how do
we connect with our clients or
show up in the Zoom courtroom.
So it's been a really fun way to
expand my business. And I find
that the skill set that I've
been working on with myself and
my own performing and with
performing artists, applies just
exactly directly to all other
humans. Surprise, surprise,
we're all very similar when it
comes down to it. And that
especially, I think, within the
law community, I think it's
very, this is a community filled
with very high performing very
high flying, very ambitious,
very intelligent people. And
oftentimes, those types of
people do not like to admit to
something like anxiety, right?
Because it might make them feel
vulnerable, or it might make
them feel like somebody is going
to jump in for the kill, if they
were to admit to something like
that. So I think a lot of people
are suffering silently. And I
know there's been a big movement
in the attorney world over the
last few years, a big push and
movement for more well being
wellness, addressing substance
abuse, right, all of these
things that you're starting to
see as CL ease and such. And so
I love to see how my skill set
sort of fits into that uniquely.
And it's just I love this work.
It's so much fun to do with
people.
Right. And it's it is so so
needed because one of the things
that I think we often don't
consider when we go to law
school Is there are some people
have very definite ideas about
it. But a lot of people wind up
going to law school because you
know, they have this vision of
what it means to be an attorney.
And there are all different
kinds of ways that we can be an
attorney. And we might find
ourselves heading down a path
that is not suited to our
nature. And that's a lot of
times where that anxiety can
crop up. So I'll give you a
couple of examples. One, I
remember being when I first
started, as an intern I was
doing, I was asked to
participate in litigation, I was
working for a state attorney's
office. And the anxiety was so
overwhelming for me to be the
only one. And it's, it's tough
enough in law school, when you
you know, just suddenly, you're
the only one of a couple 100
people that's speaking, the room
is quiet, you only hear your
voice. But then when you get
into a courtroom, it's the
pressure is huge. And I actually
had therapists at the time who
sent me to a psychiatrist and
the psychiatrist put me on a
medication, she's, I want you to
take this just before you go
into court. And I want you to
see how calm you are, and how
you perform when you're calm.
And it was amazing, because it
felt wonderful. When I was had
this medication, I was like, Oh
my gosh, I'm so calm. And I
performed tremendously, and did
a great job. But the anxiety and
the nerves were so overwhelming.
And unfortunately for me, the
medication gave me such bad
migraines after or I would have
just wanted it all the time.
That's such a profound effect.
So I couldn't take it. But it
allowed me to see what can
happen when your anxiety and
your nerves are calm. How is it
that you help people deal with
anxiety? Because like you said,
anxiety doesn't have anything to
do with intelligence, or the
level of preparation? Or any of
that? Where do you think it
comes from it? And what kinds of
things do you do is help your
clients with that?
Yes, well, just to touch very
quickly on what you were talking
about with the medication. And
thank you for sharing that with
me. Many people do rely on
medication for these things.
There's a whole class of drugs
called beta blockers, which
lower our blood pressure. And so
when we're anxious, our blood
pressure raises our heart rate
raises. And so these drugs can
be very effective. But I also
like to point out to clients,
well, what if, like you
mentioned, what if the drug
stops working for you, or has a
side effect that you don't like.
And also, I think sometimes
people would love to just make
sure that they have extra tools
in their toolkit. So you can use
a performance enhancing drug,
you know, as it were, for the
courtroom, for example, and also
have skills and tools to help
manage your anxiety. And I think
that when these skills and tools
are coming from within us versus
an external source, like a pill,
I have nothing against
medication whatsoever, big
supporter of it. However, it's
so much more empowering. It puts
us back in the driver's seat to
have some skills and tools. So
just to give a brief primer on
really what anxiety is. Because
we don't, we don't oftentimes
understand it. And I find that
just understanding the basic
mechanics of anxiety can give
people a lot of feelings of
normalcy, like, Oh, I'm not
crazy for feeling this way. It's
just the way a body a human
reacts. Well, back in
Paleolithic times, we were faced
with a lot more life threatening
situations, right. And if we
look around in the animal
kingdom, as well, there exists
the function in our nervous
system that we all have heard of
before from biology, class of
fight, flight or freeze.
Sometimes nowadays people are
adding on fight flight freeze or
fawn sort of to placate is
another aspect of that. And what
happens there is that our brains
are constantly scanning our
environments without our
awareness for threats or
dangers, so that if somebody
were to burst into my room right
now, my system would emit a
bunch of adrenaline and cortisol
and other stress and sort of
action hormones to start
shuttling more blood flow to my
limbs to get me ready to fight
or to run. It shuts down my
digestion somewhat. It sends our
heart rates, racing, of course,
to help pump this blood through
our body more quickly so that we
have more energy. That's why we
feel oftentimes sweaty and
nauseous and twitchy. But also
another really interesting
aspect that I think isn't as
well known about fight or flight
is that when we are in fight or
flight, our prefrontal cortex,
which sits up here behind our
forehead, it's the most evolved
part of our brains of it's the
most evolved part of all brains
in the world, including the
animal kingdom, it's the most
human part of our brain. And
with it, we can do wonderful
things like use reason and
logic, and remember things and
craft arguments and stay
focused. Well, when we're in
fight, flight or freeze, the
prefrontal cortex loses blood
And the limbic system, which is
oftentimes referred to as our
lizard brain, which is the
oldest, most ancient part of our
brain responsible for our fear
response, gains blood flow,
because it's going into animal
mode to just protect us get us
out of the situation. So you
spoke a little bit about, you
know, nerves hitting you, and
then feeling like you couldn't
present your arguments Well, or
feeling like things are fuzzier,
foggy. And people often say
this, when they're anxious, I
can't think straight, I feel, I
feel so distracted, my brain
feels so fuzzy. Well, it's just
very natural. So what the main
problem is here, however, to sum
it up is that we are no longer
for the most part, living in a
world where a wild animal is
about to jump out at us. Yet,
our brains almost haven't
evolved to the point where they
can recognize the difference
between the dangers, quote,
unquote, of a courtroom versus
the dangers of the wild. So many
of our nervous systems still
react very strongly to those
dangerous stimuli in our
environment. And then I'll also
add to that, which is another
very important aspect for folks
to understand is that we are
social creatures, and had wet
back in case people times when
we were running with smaller
tribes, had we been rejected
from our tribe, or had we lost
social standing, we could have
either been cast out in the
wilderness and left to die alone
and not able to protect
ourselves because we needed the
help of a group, or had we been
sort of downgraded in our social
standing or demoted, we would
have lost access to resources
and mates. So this, I think, is
another really big piece that is
often an aha moment for folks,
is that we can tell ourselves as
much as we want, oh, I don't
care what other people think.
But that is to deny our own
biology, we do care. And we are
meant to care. Because we are
also meant to live in community
and meant to be connected. So
when we walk into a situation in
which we are feeling somewhat
threatened, there's that social
component, there's that
biological component, it's so
important for us in the world,
to be able to feel good about
ourselves, to have a sense of
esteem, to have a sense that we
are able to reach our highest
goals. And so when we walk in
there, and our anxiety has been
set off, and all of these
different things happen in the
body, we're not really able to
present ourselves like we can in
the comfort of our own homes, or
our own offices or with folks
with whom we feel comfortable.
So there's that social factor,
that biological chemical factor.
And there are and I'm sure we'll
get to this many things that we
can do about this, but just
telling ourselves don't feel
that way, or criticizing
ourselves for feeling that way,
which is oftentimes the go to,
especially for very powerful,
intelligent people. Why do I
feel this way? Why can't I
control this emotion? And that's
just a dead end street that that
quest line of questioning leads
nowhere?
Absolutely, absolutely. I do
want to get into some of the
things that we can do. But
before we do that, I want to
talk about some other places
that we as women lawyers might
feel anxious, or business
owners, or just professional
women in general. And one of the
things that comes to mind is so
many. So many my colleagues do
not like to network, and what
what we traditionally consider
networking, going to a cocktail
party or an event and talking
with people and having the
opportunity to talk about our
business. And it can cause a lot
of people a lot of anxiety. But
another thing I think that is
happening is because we've had
this couple of years of
pandemic, where we're finding
more and more, just among
discussions that I've been
involved in, and what I've been
hearing is that more of us and
reading is that more of us are.
It's like we've lost those
social skills, what little bit
we had anyway. And so we're even
more reluctant to leave the
comfort of our home and
everything is set up, we're able
to communicate through
technology. And, you know, it's
become more and more difficult.
And a lot of people are saying
that it's going to be a
challenge. I have two nephews in
college and their freshman year
in college, and I see that they
don't have so many of the
opportunities I had when I was
in college at that age to be
around other people so much is
still occurring online. And so
they're kind of, you know, in
their dorms or in their
apartments with their roommates,
you know, whatever friend
they're both live in cities
where they don't have, you know,
friends, and and so we're seeing
kind of a struggle, you know,
what are them naturally they're
twins, one of them naturally has
the more social personality, but
the one who does not have a more
social personality. It's really
struggling to develop some of
those skills. Because of the the
added anxiety, you know, of not
practicing them, you know? Are
you seeing a lot of that? Are
you seeing those kinds of things
with clients award or as the
pandemic practice while you're
seeing the church working with
your clients?
Oh, yes, Davina very much. So
you're making a very good point.
These things weren't always easy
for us even prior to the
pandemic, but we were accustomed
to them. Or, to use another
word, it had been normalized to
us. So although we may not have
always liked it or enjoyed it,
we were in the mode of being
able to do it with the sort of
requisite self talk and skills
that go along with it, right. So
if you're attending a network
event, networking event, once
twice a month, or going to a
cocktail party and meeting new
people, and you've been doing
that consistently, it's it's
becomes normalized to us, we're
able to cope with some of the
anxieties that come up in the
little bits of social anxiety
that we all have to a varying
degree when faced with new
situations. And then, you know,
kind of tying this back to that
fact that I mentioned before of
our brain constantly scanning
for threats. Well, we've all
been isolated. And there's been
this threat of a virus floating
around, and we don't know whom
it's going to hit or how and how
it will affect us. So our brain
has a whole new very large
threat to deal with. And then we
think about all the after
effects of the Coronavirus. So I
would say in many ways, our
nervous systems are sort of
tapped out right now. We're,
we're so tired, and we're so our
systems are so exhausted of
living in this kind of low level
to high level anxiety all the
time, we are seeing people
access mental health services at
record numbers, we are seeing
all of all of the bad statistics
go up for anxiety, depression,
suicide, substance abuse,
overdoses, all of those things,
car accidents, also,
interestingly, so So yes, it's
this. It's this. We were already
challenged by this, but maybe we
didn't recognize that it was a
challenge because we were used
to coping with it. And then you
take a big pause, and I'm seeing
the same thing with my
performing artists, people are
going back to the Broadway stage
back to the stage of the
Metropolitan Opera. These are
seasoned artists who have done
this their entire lives. And
they're coming to me and saying,
why does this suddenly feel so
scary to me. And part of my job
is to teach them tools and
skills to help them cope, but
also just to normalize and
validate their experience. Of
course, this feels this way. If
we hadn't, I don't know, ridden
a bike in a few years and and
then we got back on, we'd be a
little wobbly at first, too,
we'd probably be slightly
anxious. Do I still know how to
do this? What is this? Like?
Will I get hurt? So I think it's
the overall societal anxiety
coupled with the fact that we've
had a break from all of this.
But I do, to your point, feel
very sorry for the younger
generations, because they're
losing out. And I think this is
happening, you know, in law
schools as well. Right? People
are made graduating from law
school and still working from
home, oftentimes, as attorneys,
and people are losing out on
community and connection, and
that's actually one of the most
important factors that can
positively influence our nervous
system. When we feel connected,
when we feel a sense of
belonging. That is a very, very
significant way to calm our
nervous systems. And a lot of us
have been missing that.
Right. Right. Absolutely. I also
think in terms of with with
attorneys, you mentioned
speaking, public speaking, and
obviously court, and you
mentioned zoom, and one of the
challenges for small business
owners of any kind, but for
women's law firm owners is so
much of the connecting and
engaging with other people right
now is done through social
media, in addition to zoom, or
are these kinds of video
conferencing, but social media
is where a lot of people are
connecting with prospective
clients and their best referral
sources, and they're involved in
communities and discussions. And
so there's a need for those, you
know, for those of us advising
about marketing, we may be
talking about becoming more
visible. I know with my clients
it is I try to make sure that
they're fitting whatever they're
doing with their personality
with where their clients hang
out, and also incorporating a
team to help but a lot of times
we may be required to be more
visible and I and I know for
people I'm in my audience, as
I'm always talking about, like
I'm in my 50s so I feel a little
bit older, like I was recently
reading an article and they
called women over 50 Dyno babies
was IBM word how offensive IBM
was threatening to you know,
they had secret memos going
around to you know, get the dyno
babies out of goodness and they
were talking about women
Actually, so I was like, I'm a
dying a baby, obviously. But I
am, you know, I'm on Instagram,
for example, and I have an
Instagram manager. And she's
always telling me, you know, you
do more reels, you need to do
more reels. And like, you know,
like, first of all, yes, sir.
Secondly, it's not it's not
something that I feel naturally
comfortable doing because I
didn't grow up filming my life.
And so that and being I posted
something about the other day
and somebody said, Oh, typical
attorney, you're overthinking.
You're overthinking things. And
I, we do a lot of us do
overthink things. Have you? Have
you had clients talk with you
about sort of this, this push to
be more visible, to be more out
there because of social media to
put more of their lives out for
people because of social media?
And the impact of that on them?
Or you know, what their
experiences?
Oh, yes. Very much so and you
and your audience may be
surprised to learn that it's not
just people who are in
generations who didn't grow up
filming themselves, which I
belong to the dyno babies to
then Davina. It's also some of
my younger performing artists.
And that might give people
pause, like why would a
performer have trouble filming
themselves and putting
themselves out there isn't that
the same thing as stepping onto
a stage or stepping into a
rehearsal. But here is where I
like to help people also
understand No, it is very much
different. And it doesn't matter
how much sort of onscreen
confidence you might have in a
rehearsal. Even if you're a TV
person, I don't think you
necessarily have that this
necessarily comes naturally to
you. What happens here, in my
best estimation, I don't think
there's enough research on it,
because this is still such a
relatively new phenomenon. But
when we are putting ourselves
out there on social media, that
fear that we feel walking in to,
let's say, courtroom client
negotiations, you know, public
speaking, we can actually see
the people around us for the
most part, right, some faces
might be obscured by by heads or
taller people, but we can see
and our nervous system can take
in what is going on here in the
room, we have so much richness
in the room for our bodies to
read, without us even knowing
we're doing it. So we can, you
know, look around and we can
give our quote unquote,
performance. And we can look
around and we can kind of sense
how it is landing or arriving we
can sense the tone and tenor of
the room. We're just we feel
more secure. And even if things
don't feel great to us, it's a
known quantity. It's a known
environment. And even if we
don't like it, we know what it
is, well add a tiny little
camera that's filming me and me
putting myself out there. And I
struggle with this too. On
Instagram on tick tock, whatever
it may be. Our brain, I think
hasn't evolved enough yet to
handle the giant question, which
is who sees this? How will they
react, we can cope if it's real
people in the room not reacting?
Well, we've been through that
before. We can't our brain can't
cope with all of this unknown.
And I think what our what our
brain does, is it wants us to
avoid anything that's too risky
for us. Because once again, it
still sort of stuck in those
Paleolithic times where we
weren't maybe getting enough
calories in the day. And our
brain needs 20% of our daily
energy, which is a lot
considering all of the organs in
our system. So our brain is
tremendous at figuring out when
to avoid danger, avoid risk,
avoid scary new things, because
it thinks Ooh, if I go do that
scary new thing, I might have to
expend too much energy. And then
I might not have enough energy
leftover later and we might all
starve and die. It's it's you
know, it's still very, very
primitive in the way it handles
some things. So our brain
actively wants to find excuses
for us to avoid doing these
scary risky things, because it's
not sure if we can survive it.
Now, of course we can. Could it
possibly have negative effects
on our mental health? If if
we're trolled on social media?
Or if we have a an abusive meme
comment, of course. But there's
something about the unknown, of
putting ourselves out there and
having no idea who's going to
see this and who's going to
judge this. That gives I think
most of us pause. So you're not
alone in this. Your clients are
not alone in this. My clients,
even the young performers are
not alone in this with many of
them. I have to do a lot of
coaching around how to put
ourselves out there in social
media in a way that feels good
to us and learn to build our
skills to cope with the
resulting anxiety that comes up
when we put ourselves out there
and that way in fact, I I've
taught a whole workshop on it
before
you run out gap. Yeah. I think
to myself, even, you know, even
for performers or people who
naturally performative or
whatever, your, your, your being
that it's you, your thoughts,
your point of view and your
thought, a script, it's not a
play, it's not somebody else,
and you're the producer, the
director, the whatever, you
know. So it's, it's, you're
holding up, and I'm sure with a
lot of performers, you know,
there's still a team, when you
have a performance going on, you
know, that it's hundreds of
people involved in a show or
whatever. And you're paying,
you're part of linear, you know,
doing a real or tic tock or
something there you are putting
yourself out there. And
everybody's, and and you
mentioned, the key word, I
think, in that is judgment. And
that is this belief that we are
going to be judged. And there's
a belief in there somewhere that
other people's opinions matter,
and our lives matter more maybe
than our own matter matter at
all. And I'm always working with
my clients about sort of working
through that fear of judgment.
Because does it really impact
the day to day of your life?
And, you know, certainly, there
are some cases where things do
but I once had someone say to
me, you know, the people who can
accept the most judgment are the
people who rise to the top top
levels of our society and they
use at the time it was Donald
Trump and Hillary Clinton
because they were running for
president and they said, these
two individuals can accept an
incredible amount of judgment,
and continue to put themselves
out there. And I thought that
was a really and whether you
whether you like or hate any of
them, I'm not, I won't go there.
But I have strong opinions there
too. But I You just you look at
your celebrities and your, you
know, the stars and politicians,
and there are people who can
really handle a lot of judgment
and keep going forward. And are
there things that we can do to
develop that kind of thick skin,
you've heard that sort of thick
skin, you know, about people are
the things that we can do to
develop that for ourselves, to
be able to take a little bit
more judgment and not let it
upset the applecart?
Yes, most definitely. And I
think a lot of us just have this
ingrained belief that somehow
we're just stuck the way we are,
in how we handle us, oh, I'm
just like that, that's just how
I am I'm such a, we use these
negative labels, and definitions
for ourselves without
recognizing that the brain is
the most amazing organ on Earth.
And it is what they call
incredibly plastic. Meaning if
we challenge it, if we challenge
it to grow, and we're faced with
challenges, we can learn new
ways of coping with them. I
mean, to your point about the
presidential candidates, or
anybody who's in the public eye,
like that also makes me think of
athletes and I work with some
athletes as well. These are all
people who if we looked at it
from another direction, we might
be able to call mindset experts.
Because if they were not able to
have a really strong mindset,
and a really strong coping
skills around this, they would
crumble, there's no way a human
can be so visible, and then
allow themselves to feel so
vulnerable, we have to build up
some inner strength. And when
I'm coaching with clients,
whether it's in sort of
intensive form, or this is
probably more long form coaching
work that I do with clients, we
do a lot of mindset work and
kind of taken from the area of
psychology called Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy, or CBT. For
short, it's a very popular form
of therapy, it has a huge body
of empirical research to back it
up. And it is I find incredibly
effective with have very high
functioning people. And people
consider themselves to be smart
and intellectual, because
there's a lot of teaching and
learning. And it's just a sort
of toolkit that we build. But
essentially what we're doing
there spoken in very plain
language is we are identifying
negative thought patterns of
which the brain has probably 10s
of 1000s per day. The brain is
hardwired for negativity,
because it's going to better
ensure our survival, if it is
always watching out for
dangerous and making assumptions
that something is dangerous and
bad. So it's just sort of how
we're built is our factory
setting. So that means we have
to do a lot of work, we have to
really focus and put some effort
into changing some of those
negative thought patterns. So if
we think about thought patterns,
it's almost like a groove worn
deeply in the brain. And if we
put a you know, a wagon on a
dirt road, the wheels are going
to find the grooves that they've
been running in all of these
years. It's going to take some
effort To jump those wheels out
of the groove and create a new
groove, but it can be done. So
what we do there is we find and
address negative thought
patterns or negative self talk,
sometimes I refer to it as
garbage thoughts. And we're
especially looking for the ones
that don't benefit us
whatsoever. And also, PS, most
of those negative thoughts about
ourselves or about the world are
not based in true fact, they're
opinions that our brain has come
up with. And our brain is really
clever. And it has convinced us
that those are true. It's almost
like when we practice a thought
over and over and over and over
again, it becomes a belief. And
we hold very tightly to that and
becomes a deep part of our
identity. When we can identify
these negative thought patterns,
then we can go about changing
them into something more
helpful. And now I like to be
clear, I'm not talking about
positive affirmations, those can
be helpful for some people, I
would say, generally speaking,
positive affirmations might work
well, for the small slice of the
population that is naturally
sunny and positive and
optimistic. Now we know from
also from research that this
doesn't necessarily apply to the
attorney population. Attorneys
when they've done a lot of
testing and research are found
to be pragmatic, more on the
pessimistic side, which
oftentimes also equates with
realistic, right, an attorney
has to be really excellent at
imagining all of the
eventualities, all of the
negative outcomes that could
come up, and then designing a
strategy to to conquer that,
right. So when our brains are
programmed to always be looking
for the bad, this can take a
little bit of work and a
positive affirmation, especially
for I think somebody like the
attorneys I work with at least,
they're not going to buy that
they're going to go this is a
load of bunk. Why would I say
that? I don't believe it, and
your brain literally will not
believe it, your brain literally
goes, That's BS, I don't believe
most of the attorneys I know can
even say it, not sarcastically.
But yes, very, it'll come out
very sarcastic, very sarcastic,
right. And it's considered to
maybe be kind of fluffy or sort
of new agey, you're sort of self
helpy. And that's not you know,
generally speaking, I don't like
to make large generalizations.
But that doesn't really fit in
with with the population of
humans on this earth who are
feel called to practice law, and
rightly so it doesn't have to be
their bag. So what we do in
replacing these thoughts is we
just create something that is
more neutral, or more helpful,
or a little bit more supportive.
So, for example, in the case of
somebody who has a lot of nerves
when entering the courtroom,
maybe we can identify a thought
pattern for them. That is
something along the lines of,
I'm so terrible at this, Why
does this always happen to me,
everybody knows that I'm bad at
this, I'm so embarrassed, I made
a fool of myself, I'm going to
continue making a fool of
myself, I'm not good at this.
But when we think thoughts like
that, we cannot help but have a
negative emotional effect that
does not feel good in our
emotions in our body. So what we
might do in a situation like
that, if I'm working with
somebody is help them design a
thought that they actually
literally need to practice and
write down and practice thinking
to reprogram perhaps, is
something along the lines of
while I might not be good at
this yet, I'm sure I can get
some help and support and become
better in time. So we're not
lying to ourselves and saying,
I'm great at public speaking.
Because once again, the brain
will just go. That's that's a
lie. And we're not allowing the
brain to continue practicing the
bad negative unhelpful patterns,
we're just creating something
that creates a little bit more
space, a little bit more hope.
It's shifting the mindset from a
fixed mindset of I'm bad at
something. And that's the end to
I could become better at this or
another, you know, something
another thought we might
practice there is I'm actually
good at this and this aspect of
public presenting. But these are
the other aspects that I would
like to improve. And just as if
we're talking to children, we
don't want to say you're bad at
something and you suck. We want
to say, you know, this wasn't
your best work. But I bet if you
apply yourself and maybe use
some different study strategies
next time, it could be a lot
better. So we want to always be
using helpful encouraging
language, in education with our
children and with others in our
lives, that we turn around and
to ourselves. We use the most
degrading, offensive, negative,
demeaning language.
Yeah, I definitely find that to
to be the case when we're
talking when I'm talking with
other women law firm owners is
how how quickly we can we're
we're our own worst critics, you
know, and I think when anytime
you have anyone in sort of a
have a high achieving
profession, there's a lot of
baggage that goes along with
being in a high achieving
profession somewhere, somebody
Along the way, praised us for
our high achievements. And so we
wanted to create more or
somebody demanded of us or
something. So I think it can go
along with that, that idea that
where, as a high performer and a
high achiever, there's an
expectation that we have
ourselves of perfection of being
the best of, of the world
falling apart if we don't do
something well. And of course,
it's a, it's a really
unreasonable expectation to
expect that, you know, you're
going to do everything well, I'm
always telling my clients that
you really, truly are not the
best person for every job in
your business. Because it is,
you know, is the belief of most
attorneys that well, you know,
we're smarter than the average
bear and just given enough time,
I can figure this out, and I
could, you know, sort of
willpower power, my way, my way
through it, and all that kind of
stuff, but when it but it's that
we get tricked by these darn
human emotions that don't listen
to our reason.
Darn it, I know, it's so
inconvenient.
You, I do want to talk a little
bit before we run out of time,
you have made the distinction in
your materials, on between
therapy and coaching. And I
think that's very important. And
I want to discuss it here,
because I think it will really
help people sort of understand
that I, I'm a business coach for
business coaching, when I say
business coaching, it is really
around business and, and
strategy and mindset around
business and that kind of thing.
And, but as anyone who's done
any coaching, you can see how
quickly you can get sucked into
a call calling for therapy, you
know, when somebody's sitting
there. And I remember when I
first started doing this, I
really just wanted to help
people grow their business, you
know, I don't want to fix
people's, you know, childhood
problems. Right. And, and it was
the line was a little murky, I
find myself getting into
conversations. And then I'm
like, I finally just said, Okay,
I've got to create a boundary
around this, because I'm not
equipped, qualified, nor do I
have a desire to be someone's
therapist. And I have referred
clients to therapy as a as a
result of that. But let's help
our audience listening,
listening, if they're deciding,
you know, I'm gonna hire a coach
versus Do I need a therapist?
What kinds of things they need
to think about? What is the
difference between therapy and
coaching? Where is that line?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Davina. And I actually wrote a
whole blog post about this.
That's on my website. I'm
courageous, I read it. Oh,
great. This is the one you're
referencing, yes. Because I have
to be especially careful that I
am being very clear about the
boundaries between therapy and
coaching. I want to maintain my
professional license as a
therapist. And as you know, as
it is similar in law, we can
only practice in the state in
which we are licensed. So I live
in New Mexico, which is a
beautiful state. But it has a
very small population. And it
doesn't have a high population
of performing artists, which is
where my business first started
out. So I thought, How do I use
these skills, but in a way that
is legal and ethical within my
scope of practice, yet still
being able to reach more people.
So then I turned to coaching and
through the organization that
licenses, therapists, I was able
to get a special board
certification as a coach, so
that I'm legally protected. And
I've, you know, done training
and an exam on the differences
between therapy and coaching.
Because I don't want to be
practicing therapy with my
clients either. Now, do things
get personal? Do we sometimes
get into that territory,
certainly. But for me, I can
tell very quickly when I'm
meeting with a prospective
client, because of my
therapeutic background, whether
they need my skills, or whether
they need therapy. And one of
the main identifiers for me is I
am very clear about explaining
that therapy is often very
useful to heal from past
experiences, and to gain greater
insight and understanding into
our personal patterns. How our
family of origin and upbringing
affected us so that we can be
functioning at a reasonable
level sort of back at our
baseline. So oftentimes, people
go to therapy, because they've
recognized that they've dipped
below their their normal
baseline of functioning or or
well being, and they say, I
don't feel like myself. I am
anxious, I'm depressed I'm this
I'm that I'm struggling with a
relationship in my life. I need
help because I, I'm not at my
normal level right now. And
that's great, and that's very
necessary work for many people.
Now, the way we view things in
coaching is I view my clients as
whole and complete just as they
are. Many of them also have a
therapist on the side and use me
as a coach, because it's two
different things that we're
doing. And what we're doing is
we're looking to see where are
you at right now? And where do
you want to be in the future?
And how can I help you get
there. And obviously, with
through all of my skills and
tools, I can design strategies
for them, I can customize
things, I can also sort of set
the boundary when I say, you
know, this feels more like
therapy territory that we're
talking about right now. So I
would really encourage you to
bring that to your therapist, or
let me help you find a
therapist, if you don't know how
to look for one. Or if you don't
know what might be good for you.
Let me give you some suggestions
and resources to figure this
out. But yes, coaching, as you
will know, is an unregulated
profession, for better or for
worse, anyone can call
themselves a coach. And, you
know, there are many coaches out
there who have very little
background in, in psychology
whatsoever, right? executive
coaching or business coaching,
right, you're teaching a whole
host of skills and tools, very
tactical things, strategy in
order to improve somebody's
business. But we can't take the
human out of the room, right
things come up. And many times
we find, I think, as coaches,
that we're working on somebody,
sensibly, we're working on
somebody's business, or I'm
working with them on their
public speaking skills. And what
we're finding is one of the
things that's holding them back
is some very deep wounding. Of
I'm not worthy to do this, or
who am I to be so visible. And
this, I think, especially
affects us as women, because
perhaps some biological reasons,
but very much societal and
cultural reasons of how we are
socialized to make sure
everybody around us is happy and
comfortable, and never to shine
too brightly, because it might
threaten others. So I love the
phrase full of oneself, like if
a client says, oh, but doesn't
doing that just kind of come
across as I'm so full of myself.
And I say yes. And if you think
about that phrase, it's a
beautiful phrase to be full of
myself. What could be better
than that? Right? So So yeah, I
could, I can totally see how for
you as well. Things get blurry,
because you build a trusted
relationship with someone and
they feel comfortable telling
you about things that maybe
you're not equipped to handle.
So I'm glad that you've been
able to feel like you can
develop some strong boundaries
and some referral
sources. Right. Right. Right.
It's definitely it's definitely
an area where you can very
quickly get flipped into slip
into that. And I know, it's
something that coaches discuss a
lot. In coaching organizations,
how do we draw these boundaries?
So I thought it was very
interesting when I read that,
and you being a therapist and a
coach, that you know, exactly,
you know, sort of what that is
like,
the lines are probably even
blurrier for me.
Exactly. Before we wrap well,
especially since you're dealing
with anxiety, right, when you're
dealing, you're dealing with
emotions, I mean, some of my
clients may have a feeling of
anxiety around doing some things
or you know, but knowledge often
times helps in terms of, you
know, well, let's do this or
let's try that. And that will
help we're not digging into
exactly, you know,
what, we're not digging into an
anxiety disorder, for example.
Yeah.
And with yours, I imagine it's
about you, you're focusing a lot
on this specific scenario where
anxiety occurs, right? As
opposed to looking back to okay,
I'm an anxious person. And I
something I need to discuss with
a therapist to sort of figure it
out.
Right? Is that happening more
globally in my life? Or is it
more isolated, I find for
coaching, it can be better. If
it's in an isolated area of our
lives, I'm anxious about public
speaking, I'm anxious about
building a business. But yeah,
somebody has a lot higher than
normal. We all have anxiety,
right? It's a human emotion, we
can't avoid it. But such high
levels of anxiety that they're
not able to function as they
would like to in many areas of
their lives. That's sort of a
good red flag to say, therapy
might be necessary
here. You, you are exactly.
Alright, before we wrap up, is
there any final thought you kind
of want to leave with our
audience? If they may be sort of
experiences kind of
performative, anxiety or
emotions around it? Or whatever,
they feel that they can do a
better job? Or?
Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I would
really advise and, of course,
you know, I can't help it be
biased here. But really advise
that they get some professional
help with this, either from a
therapist or from a coach like
myself, because I think what
happens with very intelligent
people is they feel and this
sort of goes back to your point
before they feel like they
should be able to figure it out
on their own. They feel like
well, I'm smart, and I've gotten
all these accolades and I have
all these fancy degrees and and,
you know, at a girls in my life,
why can't I figure this out?
There must be something wrong
with me. Maybe if I just put my
mind to it, I can figure it out.
Or maybe I can just bully myself
into not being anxious, maybe I
can just tell myself that stupid
to feel that way. And I
shouldn't feel that way. And why
do I feel that way, neither of
those are going to work, we all
need to be, I think very
realistic about what is our area
of expertise and what is not our
area of expertise. And your
clients come to you because they
are experts in the law, but
they're not experts in building
a law business. And they weren't
taught that in law school, they
need some help and mentorship
around that. And this can be, I
have worked with people sort of
in emergency fashions before
where a friend will call me late
at night before a big company
speech, the next day help, I'm
freaking out, I don't know what
to do. And I have taken multiple
people in my personal life
through a quick list of things,
okay, I want you to try this, I
want you to try this, I want you
to try this, I want you to do
this before the speech. And it's
not, it's a bandaid. But the
feedback I've gotten has been so
incredible, like, wow, Angola,
you taught me just a couple
things. And I went in there
feeling so much better. And, you
know, we can get even deeper and
more impressive results in sort
of VIP coaching session or
longer term coaching. But just
just to recognize whether it's
listening to podcasts on mental
health or anxiety, whether it is
consuming, you know, free
content that's out there,
whether it is reading a book
about it, whether it is
consulting with a therapist, we
can learn to deal with these
things. And we shouldn't have to
deal with them alone. And
imagine where we could be, if we
could get some help, just like
you do, I'm sure with your
business owners, if you can get
some help, you can fast forward
the progress here. You don't
have to continue to struggle
with all of this and figure it
out on your own. Sometimes the
DIY approach is just not what
you need, you need. You need
another professional to hold
your hand for a while and show
you the way.
And to your point, I think I
know for myself was speak for
myself, but I'm prone to
intellectualize a lot. And so
I'm a challenging client, for a
therapist or for a coach because
I already have just the age I am
in life, plus all the life
experiences I've had the edge. I
know a lot of the things that
people are going to say to me, I
know them in on an intellectual
level, too. And I think a lot of
us, that's where we sort of
struggle asking for help or
getting help is that, well, I
already know what you're going
to tell me, I already know what
they're going to say, I know,
they're going to say that I'll
just, you know, do this or that
or whatever. But what I have
found as somebody who has had
therapists and coaches
throughout my life at various
stages, for different reasons,
is that even though I know
intellectually, I I'm there's a
an emotional part of me that is
not picking up what I'm throwing
down. And some other people,
it's just like, it's just like,
when you tell your spouse over
and over again, you know, this
is an issue you need to work on.
This is an issue you look at,
and they're like, are talking
about crazy. And then they
somebody randomly says to them,
you know, shoot that they're
like, Oh my God, why? If we do
that to ourselves as well, yes,
no, actually, somebody can pray
something in a way or reframe it
in a way that you're like, Oh, I
hadn't thought of it that way.
And I think that's why it's so
important to open ourselves up
to other if we expect people to
hire us as experts, as
attorneys, we certainly need to
be willing to do the same thing
and realize there are a lot of
other people out there that may
have information that we don't
have, even though we read the
book about it, right?
Yes, it's a it's a real trap to
fall into, isn't it? When we
live so much in the intellectual
space, we think we can fix
everything with our intellect.
And you're right that oftentimes
I think, especially in the
attorney population, I see the
artists are more feeling and
emotional as we would sort of
expect from the stereotype. And
the attorneys and other
professionals are very used to
functioning from the neck up.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.
I thank you so much for being
here. Tell us if somebody wants
to reach out and get in touch
with you and maybe work with
you. I'm assuming you're
virtual. You work with people
all over us all over the world.
Okay, so why don't you give us
your information, we are going
to include you in the show
notes. But is there any place in
particular that we need to know
to go to to find out and connect
with you?
Yeah, you can go to my website,
which is just courageous
artistry calm, and there's a
Contact page there and you can
join my newsletter, my mailing
list if you're interested in
other things that I'm doing out
there in the world. You can also
contact me directly my email
address is Angola. That's i n g
e la at courageous artistry
calm, and I am also on Instagram
and Facebook, both at courageous
artistry and I just started
speaking of onscreen confidence
and making reals. Davina, I just
started a tic tock recently, so
I'm at courageous artistry on
there as well so people can find
me in pretty much all the spaces
also LinkedIn although I don't
spend a ton of time there just
under My name Angola Onstad.
Yeah,
yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So
we'll definitely have to watch
out. Watch out for your reels
and yeah. And see you performing
in that in that arena. Yes.
Appreciate we appreciate it so
much Eagle. It's been really a
pleasure talking with you.
Thanks so much for being here.
Oh goodness. My pleasure.
Davina. Thank you so much for
having me.
