Instead of ‘Selling,’ Get SELLected
Unknown: Hi, everyone, and
welcome to the wealthy woman
lawyer Podcast. I'm here today
with Merritt Khan, who's the CEO
of Selekt, select sales
development. She's also an
emotional intelligence expert
and a certified professional
speaker. She has been in sales
for more than 20 years. And she
teaches other professionals how
to master their sales
conversations. And I'm so
excited to have her here today.
Because if you are an attorney
with your own law practice,
well, even if you're not even if
you're working, and your job is
to bring in business
development, if your job is to
bring in clients, you're working
for another firm, you need to
learn how to sell and I know
attorneys create the word sell,
we don't want to talk about
selling, we don't want to think
of our conversations as Sally.
But just like any other
business, unless a sale is made,
nothing happens. So that is why
we have married here today.
She's going to tell us a way to
to reframe our thoughts on this
and also give us some nice tips
to take away from it. So
welcome, Mary.
Well, thank you Divina. I'm
super happy to be here with you.
Great, so why don't you start
out by telling us I always love
to get a sense of people's sort
of journey to where they are
now. What because I always find
it fascinating to find out all
the different like, stops on the
way that they made to becoming
wherever they are now. So why
don't you tell us about your
journey to sales? Were you
always a salesperson?
Yes, I think you know, it's,
it's interesting, because
sometimes people go find
themselves in the profession of
law, because they come from a
family of lawyers. And so there
were rounded and it's very
comfortable and familiar to
them. And there's families of
generations of doctors, I come
from a generation of
salespeople, generations
multiple. So my grandfather had
a used car dealership, so he was
like that cliche. My grandmother
sold Avon. My mother sold real
estate, my dad sold advertising
and so there's really never a
question of what's Merritt going
to do with her life? What's
marriage gonna sell? around it?
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love
that story. And I have always
says, matter of fact, I have two
nephews that, as most people who
follow me know, who were in
college, and one of the things
that I have told both of them is
that you need to develop sales
skills, because you need to
develop sales skills, you will
never go hungry, you will never
worry about being able to make
money because you can always
sell something. And it took me a
long time, I did not grow up in
that at all. I grew up in a
family where my parents worked
for the government. And so they
had to stay paychecks,
everything. But as an
entrepreneur who's had multiple
businesses, I know if we're not
selling, or making money, but
the flip side of that I know if
I need money, I just need to
come up with something to sell.
So tell me about how what did
you do from the eye with this
idea that you were going to sell
and this was something that your
family did? What was your first
sales position?
My first sales 12 Want to go
way, way back, I sold greeting
cards door to door. That was my
first skill. I got one of these
little greeting card machines
for my seventh birthday or
something and I got myself a
little briefcase and a little
jacket and I quite literally
went door to door and offered my
greeting cards because you never
want to find yourself in a
situation where it's somebody's
birthday, and you are
unprepared. I crushed it. I just
want to say I crushed it. I had
a very successful business as a
as a young child. Later in life
I sold radio advertising was my
first real job out of college. I
did very well there. I loved it.
I worked really hard. I'm sure
many people in your audience,
you know, are very used to the
long hours and the grind and you
just do what it takes. But I was
excited and I had something to
prove. And I didn't think of
anything of working so hard. I
was definitely not working
smart. But I definitely worked
hard. And I became a sales
manager very early in my career
probably a little before I was
actually ready if I'm honest
about it. And it was in that
experience that because I was
stretched beyond what I thought
my current capabilities were. I
went out and I got training. And
actually, I really had done some
training in preparation for that
my my parents always taught me
train for your next job dress
for your next job. Be prepared
for the opportunity when it
knocks and so that was always my
philosophy. And I I learned
sales and sales management
training. And then fast forward
the radio station that I was is
where I was a manager was being
sold. And so my choices were, go
back into the radio business,
put my get the word out and let
people know I wanted another job
or, you know, this would be a
good time to switch industries.
And I looked around and the
people that I was doing my sales
and sales management training
courses with as a participant,
tapped me on the shoulder and
said, you'd be great at this.
Like, why don't you sell for us
and then train, you know, as you
get more of your clients will
give you opportunities to train
and coach and lead. And I
thought, This sounds perfect.
And it really was, it's been an
incredible ride. I've I've been
doing the same thing, different
iterations since 1998. Love it.
Wow, I love that. So when did
you start your current company?
And what was the impetus for
that?
So I mean, definitely, you could
say that I really, I started my
own brand back in 1998. And the
name of the company has changed.
It's always been me delivering
sales, sales, management,
training, coaching, consulting,
projects, sometimes I was doing
more consulting, sometimes it
was more of this professional
speaking business model. But
right at the start of the
pandemic, so early 2020, I
actually took over as CEO for
select sales development, we
spell it SEL L, E, C, T, not
because we can't spell select,
but because it is about selling.
But our philosophy really is we
actually want you to stop
selling right selling as in
being pushy and aggressive and
salesy, and nobody likes that.
And certainly, we won't train
people to be like that, we want
you to stop selling, we want you
to start getting selected. And
so that's kind of the name of
the brand. And that was actually
a brand that was started by a
dear friend of mine who passed
away way too young. But she had
had a sales training company,
and I had a sales training
company. And we we shared a very
similar philosophy. And there
were some things she did better
than me. And some things I had,
you know, more dialed in than
her. And so when she passed
away, and we wanted to keep her
legacy alive, we decided to go
with her brand. And I merged the
best of what she had the best of
what I had, I think she'd be
very, very pleased with what
we've ended up with. Yeah.
Yeah, what a terrific way to
honor somebody's legacy,
somebody that you care about, is
to keep their business going.
Let's so let's dive in and talk
about selling. I would, I would
put forth having had many
conversations with women, law
firm owners, lawyers thinking
their own business that lawyers
don't like the idea of selling,
they can't the you know, a lot
of lawyers don't easily wrap
their mind around the thought
that their consultation with a
client is a sales conversation.
I completely disagree. Because I
if if that is the part of the
business where if you don't get
the client sign up, then you're
not gonna need systems for
anything else. If you don't, if
you don't get the client signed
up, and you're not getting that
money and to begin with. So tell
us a little bit about you've
worked with lawyers before and
other professionals. Tell us
what your perspective is on a
sales conversation for people
who sell professional services,
particularly if they're selling
professional services, where
they are the ones who are
delivering the services, not
these other people on the team
in the in the corporation or
whatever.
Yeah, well, first of all, I
haven't met a single attorney
who went to law school and all
put in all that work and all
that study, to come out the
other end, and then think of
themselves like a salesperson.
It's just like, that doesn't
make any sense. So I've always
been in awe of my clients that
our professional services
providers, they I know that
they've all put in a lot of
effort and a lot of work to get
to the point where you earn the
right to have your own business,
to share your expertise and to
help people with their
challenges. Now, it's great to
be great at what you do that you
could be the best attorney on
the planet. But if you don't
understand how to generate
business, how to turn those
consultations into new clients,
then it really doesn't matter
that you're the best because the
guy down the hall or woman down
the hall is going to get the
business that frankly you
deserve, you might be a better
practitioner. So my philosophy
is always how can I help you as
the attorney, learn to use your
expertise to ask the best
questions in especially in that
consult initial consultation,
you It's the person who asked
the best questions that makes
their prospect or prospective
client think deeper about the
challenge about the, the, you
know, the either the legal, you
know, issues at hand or the
contract issues, you know, all
of those things. If you can make
your prospective client think at
a different level than any of
the other people that they might
be talking to, you're the one
that they are thinking I am
comfortable that one made me
think that attorney made me
think deeper, they know
something, I clearly don't know,
I'm going to get the best
protection working with that
attorney. And so I think it's
helping my clients understand
how to use their expertise to
ask the best questions. That's
really the secret to a good
consultation.
So let's dig into that a little
bit deeper. One of the pitfalls,
I think, that I I've seen of
lawyers who are handling
Congress consultations have is
they step into this giving legal
advice during the consultation.
And it coaches do this too,
because you know, I've certainly
had conversation with a lot of
coaches. It's something that we
just, we, we know the answer,
right? We went to law school,
and we study cars, we know the
answer. And so when somebody
starts asking questions, the
instinct is to go in and start
answering the questions. And we
feel like if we don't answer
their questions, they're going
to go to somebody else. Tell me
what your perspective is on
that, and maybe some tips to
help us. So because oftentimes,
people will give free
consultations, if you're giving
free consultations, we don't
want to get into giving free
legal advice and feeling
resentful, and taken advantage
of because somebody is
scheduling appointment with us,
and all they want is free legal
advice. And then they're gonna
go try to do it themselves or
hire somebody else. So how can
we not fall prey to that sort of
situation?
I think the most important thing
you can do in that situation, is
to frame that initial
consultation, take the lead,
take control, and let that
prospective client know how
you're going to run this
conversation. And so we teach
formulas, I used to teach
scripts, you know, this is what
to say, say it this way. And
that's inauthentic. And you
know, really the used to be the
old ABCs of selling we're always
be closing, that's That's old
news don't do that the new ABCs
of selling are authentic
business conversations. So to
have an authentic business
conversation, it's really easier
to think in formulas. So the
formula I would, I would suggest
for in this case is we call it
plan PLA N purpose logistics
agenda, next steps. So in that
exact situation, let's say I'm
the attorney, and you're my
prospective client, I would say,
Davina, thank you so much for
coming on in today, I'm looking
forward to hearing a little bit
more about the situation I
understand we're talking about a
blah, blah, blah kinda case. The
purpose of this conversation is
to see if we're a good match to
work together. And, you know, in
terms of my agenda, I'd like to
understand a little bit more
about the details of the case
that you want to share with me,
I'm sure you have a million
questions for me. And there's
probably some things that I can
answer, you know, quickly for
you. But the purpose of this is
not really to give you all the
legal advice, the purpose is to
see if through my questions, I
can help you think a little bit
differently or deeper about your
issue and, and we'll see if
we're a good match. Did I leave
anything out anything else we
should do? So it's a little bit
of a dialogue. And you can say,
and then at the end of our
conversation today, let's just
agree that if we aren't a good
match, we'll shake hands and
part friends. And if we are a
good match, I'm I will introduce
you to my colleague who will
handle all of the scheduling
and, you know, talk about the
payment schedules and all of
those details. But first and
foremost, tell me where we're
starting from talk to me about
your case. Right? So that might
be a little bit wordy. But
basically, if I broke that down,
you could you could hear purpose
logistics agenda next steps,
think of mindless skip
logistics. But you always want
to confirm how much time you're
going to be spending in that
consultation so it doesn't get
out of hand. And you know, it's
like so we have an hour today.
Is that what you have? Yes,
great. Okay, great. So our
agenda is
it's Not logistic, when we're
talking about logistics in this
context, it's not explaining to
them your entire process for how
you handle the case. Yes
logistics up, we only have a
half hour today. So do I have
your vision interrupt you? If we
and then you're you're saying
that and you said once we're
done, you know, and if we've
decided to give it to work
together, and I'm gonna turn you
over to Sally, Sally's gonna get
you all set up? If not, then you
know, we'll we'll we'll have
some next steps, you know, set
up for him, you know, we'll go
over some next steps for you
that you can take, right? So
something like this. And that's
the idea of Logistics is kind of
just explaining to them. It's
like when you and I started this
fall, we go over the logistics
and how long are we going to
talk? What's how when, when am I
going to start recording? What
am I gonna stop recording? What
it's all those housekeeping
items? Right.
Exactly. Yeah, I think it's
important to plan pretty much
for every conversation, just so
that you feel like you've got
some more control over it.
Right? everybody's on the same.
Hey, I noticed you have Are you
open to in that pillar right
there behind you. So why don't
you tell us what what that is
about saying no, that's a part
of your process. So give you an
idea of what it means when you
say Are you open to? And how.
Okay, so I think are you open to
are probably the four magic
words that transform sales or
really just about any
conversation. Think about it
this way. Let me ask you this.
Would you say that you are an
open minded person?
Yes, of course, because no one
ever says they're not an open
minded person.
Exactly. And do you know people
who are not open minded? Yes,
indeed. All right. So there was
actually a study done in Peppard
by Pepperdine University. And
they asked people, are you open
minded, more open minded than
the average person? And 95% of
respondents said, yes. So I
don't know about you. I mean, I
know you're an attorney, very
successful businesswoman. So I
know you had some good
education, background. But back
when I was in school, 95% of us
could not be better than the
average, maybe? I don't know.
And so I feel like when we tap
into this idea that all of us
want to be identified as
somebody who is open minded,
then rather than ask somebody,
are you interested in learning
about our services? Are you
interested in going to this
movie? Are you interested in,
you know, attending this event?
That is easy to say no to?
Because I can be uninterested in
something, and still be a good
person. But if I asked you, are
you open to considering this
event? Are you open to hearing
how a little bit more about how
we work? Are you open to try in
that movie, it's, you have to
pause because the if you say
you're not open to it, it's
about it becomes about your
identity, as opposed to your
you're a little bit more
removed, when it's of interest
or disinterest. So when I want
to get somebody to be open to
hearing about our offers, and
our solutions, or programs, the
possibility that we might work
together, I want to first ask
them, I want to invite them into
that open minded way of being
and thinking, and so I'm going
to ask them, I don't know if it
makes sense for us to do
business together. But if you're
open to it, let's just have a
conversation and see how, see
where this takes us. Okay, I
mean, like, otherwise, I'm not
open to it, and then I'm kind of
a jerk. So no one's gonna say
that. And that's why I think the
most important thing we can do,
the first step to a close deal
is always an open mind, you'll
never get anywhere in the
conversation until you open
their mind to a possibility
first. I love that I also think
that we are in one of the things
that has changed in marketing,
and sales in the last decade or
so is we live in a much more
permission based society. So if
we want people to opt in to
something and get on our email
list, we're having, you know,
we're asking their permission,
or giving them something and
we're asking their permission to
join our community or list or
whatever. Everything that we do
is, is around this idea of
asking for permission. We've
actually created laws around the
idea that you can't just, you
know, send unsolicited emails to
people, right, because they have
to give their permission. And
this is a big issue in the
online world and in the social
media world right now, is all of
these companies are collecting
data without you know, we're
giving them permission, but
we're not giving them permission
in a way that we're really aware
that we're giving them
permission. So that's another
thing that I think is an
advantage when you start using
Are you open to? It really does
it because you want to have, you
always want to feel like
everybody is here, because
they're choosing to be here and
have a conversation and every
stage of the conversation, you
want people to feel that they're
getting to have a choice. And
the are you open to really makes
it about, you're really
acknowledging that the other
person has a choice every step
of the way in the conversation.
So is that anytime they say, you
know, I'm not really open to it,
you know, but then, you know,
that's very clear. And there's
no need to to continue with
that, then if they're not open
to it, right. So and that's,
that's the sort of idea that,
you know, there I mean, you may
be the juiciest, ripe is peach
in the orchard, but not
everybody likes peaches. When
you give that are you open to
that's great. I have a I had a
conversation recently with a
woman, law firm owner. And we
were talking about shifting the
consultations from her lawyer
lawyers, from the partners and
the associates for lawyers, to a
non attorney, non attorney, non
lawyer salesperson. And I
encourage a lot of my clients to
do this as they start getting
bigger and bigger. But they
really need to have somebody who
is not just doing intake, but
it's actually signing up
clients. And she had she was she
was struggling to be open to
that idea. Because she couldn't
really understand how a non
attorney salesperson could sell.
And one of the things she said
to me I thought was very
interesting is because I was
telling her there were sales
formulas, because I also teach a
sales formula to my clients. And
she was saying I hate being sold
to. And so I don't want to sell
to people because I hate being
sold to. And we had to do some
work around sort of reframing
her emotions that our mind
around that concept of being
sold to. So tell me what your
thoughts are on being sold to
what's the difference between
being sold to, and and someone
presenting an opportunity?
Yeah, I think there's, there's
phases to the sales process. So
there's qualification, gates, if
you will, right. In fact, I was
thinking as you were talking
about a client project that I
worked on a number of years ago
for an engineering manufacturing
company that I've worked with
for probably more than 15 years.
And in this one project we were
doing, they were they were
participating in a very big
trade show, they spent 10s of
1000s of dollars to be part of
the show, they have big giant
equipment on their, you know, in
their trade show space. And
essentially, this is a company
of engineers, so not known for
their people skills, you know,
this group of people. And so I
was doing tradeshow training for
them, like helping them sell
from the booth. It's a very
different kind of very fast
paced sales process. So it's a
completely different model. But
what I did was I put on their
uniform, and I worked the trade
show floor with them. And my job
as a non engineer, I'm about as
far away from being an engineer
as you could possibly go. And my
role was to, you know, work the
edges of the tradeshow booth,
and draw people in. And all I
needed to do was qualify them to
a certain point. And as soon as
they started talking, like I did
the small talk the the, the get
them comfortable, the, you know,
give our little elevator pitch
about what we do at a very high
level, at a high level. And then
as soon as they would start
getting a little bit in the
weeds with me, I would say,
That's a fantastic question. And
I want to introduce you to Paul,
he has been with the company for
a really long time. And he's the
go to guy on that topic. And
then I would just hand them off,
hand them off, hand him off.
Well, they ended up talking to
way more people than they ever
had at a trade show. Because
they never had somebody to pull
them in. And I think in your
situation with attorneys, I
think you want to you can almost
set it up. I mean, you're the
you're the one they want to get
to they have to qualify to get
to your time and so the reframe
would be you know, we'd like to
invite you in to have a
consultation. Here's how things
work in our firm. You're going
to sit down With me, whoever the
sales going to Account Manager
account professional would be.
And I'm going to sit down with
you gather some initial
information about your case, you
know, answer some of your, you
know basic questions about how
we work in terms of our firm.
And then if we're both feeling
comfortable, and it feels like
it makes sense and you'd like to
meet Davina, then I'm going to
bring her in, you know, we'll
schedule our time for a time
that she's in the office, and
then she can come on in and, you
know, answer some of your more
specific questions. And then we
can decide together, if you
decide you're comfortable with
her, then, you know, I'll take
it from there. And, you know,
we'll work out all the details.
But I think you've got a really
good way to make that
understandable for the client,
because think about from the
clients perspective, I don't
want to pay high priced
attorneys fees, you don't want
to pay your hourly rate to do
something that a paralegal can
do. Or, you know, a salesperson
can do. And you can use that as
a benefit to your clients to
say, Look, our firm, we really,
you know, we make sure that our
expert attorneys spend the most
of their time focused on
delivering the value for our
clients. And so everything we
can do along the way to protect
their, their time, and, and make
it more affordable for our
clients. We're gonna you know,
that's why I'm gonna sit down.
And you know, if we're not
qualified, you're not paying
attorneys fees for that
conversation. And I think
there's ways to reframe it so
that it's a benefit to the
prospective client. So that if
they do choose you now they're
thinking, well, that's
interesting. This is not a place
that's trying to rack up
billable hours, I'm going to get
the hours I need with the
attorney that I need. But I'm
also going to work with this
group as a whole. And that way,
it's going to minimize some of
my costs, but I'm gonna get the
best expertise. And I think you
can use that as a real
advantage. Yeah,
yeah, I would take it even one
step further. I do think that
there are some attorneys who are
kind of wrapping their mind
around the idea of sort of a pre
screening step. So people are
they're having they're putting
people in positions to do sort
of pre screening. And there they
are looking for things like is
does this person have a job and
ability to pay me? Do they have
a case of the type that we
handle? Do they seem like
somebody who's reasonable? Or is
there a lot of are there a lot
of red flags here, that might
cause them to be a difficult
client. So I think you can have
somebody who's good at sort of
pre screening that was, I think
you could take it further. And I
think this is where a lot of
attorneys have a hard time
imagining this, but I do know
that there are law firms that
are doing this. And that is that
you could actually get clients
signed up with to be a to be a
client of the firm, before they
ever meet with an attorney. In
other words, they do not meet
with an attorney until they meet
for their strategy call. So
they're signed up as clients,
the firm, you're collecting data
from them, they're filling out
whatever intake and then
scheduling equipped with an
attorney after they've already
paid a retainer. And that's a
completely different model than
most law firms operate on. But I
think the bigger you get, the
more you need to be pulling
people out of those attorneys
out of those consultations,
because attorneys need to be
working on the actual client
work. And also that presents it
as you're hiring the firm, not
the individual, which is where a
lot of attorneys get into this
idea that well, how do I
transition people from thinking
they're working with me, the
owner, to me passing things off
to my team, because they come in
and they want to hire me if it's
Davina Frederick Law, they're
going to come in and expect to
hire Divina Frederick, no matter
that I've got three more
attorneys who work for me now.
And part of the reason why
people struggle when making that
transition, is because the
they're meeting so many with you
to do the consultation. And so
they think they've hired you.
And now you're gonna have
trouble passing out to your
team. And there's ways that we
can do language in the
conversation and change that if
you're still doing it. And I
also have a philosophy that I
don't think you should train
your associates to do sales. I
think that the associates you
need to be your job is to mentor
and focus on making them great
lawyers leading mentoring that
partners on the one hand close
clients. But I do think you
could set up a non attorney
salesperson to actually close,
particularly some low hanging
fruit. And let me give you an
example of that. I had a I hired
an attorney For I have one
attorney referred me to another
attorney, I call the office.
They explained how they work.
They sent me an agreement, I
signed it, send everything back.
And the next person who
contacted me was somebody intake
to get information from me. And
all of this stuff was done
before I ever had talked with an
attorney. So it's very possible.
And I think that piece is really
hard for lawyers to wrap their
mind around because they feel
like the person will not hire a
law firm unless they have met
with an attorney. First, have
you had that? Have you? Have you
seen that with law firms or not?
And if so, kind of what are your
thoughts? Because in sales power
in in sales conversations, when
you're having sales
conversations, or when somebody
on your team is having sales
conversations? Are you spending
that sales conversation time
giving advice about sales? Or
are you spending that time
asking questions to determine if
you're a right fit to work
together? Which is different?
Yeah. I mean, I think that
there's some amount of
information that you can give
that, you know, demonstrates
your expertise. But again, I
think the the person who is
talking is the person who is not
selling or buying, right, like
the person, like the buying
happens when I'm listening, not
when I'm talking, if I'm the
salesperson. And so I, I do
think that what you've described
is entirely possible. I think
that part of what gets you to
that place where there's, you
know, you don't get to talk to
an attorney until you're, you've
done your heart, your paperwork,
and you are a client of the
firm. I think I'm wondering, and
this is just a question for you.
Is there? Does that work in all
types of legal categories? or
would there be certain types of
categories? Like, in my mind, I
don't want to put any head trash
in there. I'm just wondering, is
it the same for family divorce
attorney where it seems more
emotional, or intellectual
property attorney where it
seems, in my mind a little bit
more mechanical? Do you see any
distinction there?
Ah, well, I don't, I think it
can work for most I'm gonna, I'm
gonna say, as an attorney, I'm
gonna I'm also gonna say it
depends, which is what attorneys
say. And also, there are
exceptions to every rule. So
there are rules, there are
exceptions. But most people
think that most people just like
most people will tell you that
they're open minded. Most people
also will tell you that they're
an exception to the rule. So it
won't work for their business.
So I think you don't know if
it's going to work until you try
it. And, and here's the and
here's why. Because I know you
talked about sales formula. So
if you are, if you were to hire
people in your company to sell
to get people signed up for your
services, there is a formula
right there is there a checklist
of things that we need to be
asking about, that we there's a
way to phrase in a way with
brace our opening the way we
phrase our closing, there's a
way that we tend move people
through a process in a certain
order that builds up to the
making of the decision, the
purpose of the conversation is
helping that person make a
decision. And also you make a
decision about whether you're a
good fit to work together. So
when I have seen this done,
usually what happens is the
person will will will say
something, you know, so tell me
what, what's going on? What is
it that you're you're getting an
attorney for? So they go
through, and then you ask
questions, like you said, you
ask questions about what you
know. So what what is it that
you're you're wanting? What's
the end result you're wanting?
Why are you acting now? What is
something happened that caused
you to call us today? Call us
now? What is that about? So
you're getting that urgency
question in there. See what
obstacles have prevented you
from doing this? Why would
you've done this before? And,
you know, so then you're leading
them up to really get clarity
on? Why do you need to take
action on this thing? And they
and in my opinion, when unlike,
let's say, other professions?
When when someone is calling an
attorney's office, there's no
question that they have a
problem of some kind. Right,
right, or they would not call so
what you want to do,
like we're not just calling you
because we want to work with
more attorneys in our life.
Right?
So you want so the goal then is
to stop them from dialogue with
where, you know, like, you want
to stop the process of them,
dialing and dialing on the next
until they, so the person that I
hate is able to stop them and
say, Let's do it. That's, that's
the person they hire the person
that says, Okay, what is you
know, so tell me what's going on
and, and the big part of that I
think is feeling like they're
heard, like somebody hears me
and and understands the pain and
they have the capability of
solving a problem. And so maybe
a non attorney salesperson is
the best person to tell the
services of the lawyers, right,
because you're not saying about
that undersell? You know, I'm
also that's why you hire me,
right?
Well, you know, and you're
making me think a little bit
deeper about this, I'm actually
I really liked this idea, the
more you're talking, I'm seeing
even a better application for
it. And, you know, if there are
multiple attorneys in the firm,
then it makes a lot more sense
that each prospective client is
going to meet with the person in
the sales role. And one of the
other ways that you could frame
that is look, we have, we have
several attorneys in the firm
all have sort of a slightly
different style, a different
personality, different levels of
experience within some of the
specifics of this category. And
the purpose of this conversation
is so that I can understand you,
not just the details of your
case, and the nuances of it, but
also the way you like to work
with, with your, you know,
experts that you hire outside
consultants, and, you know,
advisors. Some of you know, we
have attorneys that are very
bottom line, we have attorneys
that are, you know, going to
tell you a good story. You know,
I want to find the right match
for not just for your case, but
somebody that you're going to
work really well with. And so if
you're open to it, I'm going to
ask you a lot of questions, some
of them are going to be very
different than what you might
have heard and other law firms
you might have talked with, just
trust me that we know our
process. And at the end of this
process, if you're feeling
comfortable with, you know, this
kind of conversation, then I
would invite you to be you know,
a client of the firm, and just
know what that means is we're
going to assign the attorney,
that's the best fit for you and,
and the timeline that you have,
and they're based on their
schedules. And if for some
reason that is, you know, not
the right fit, we're going to,
you know, give you somebody
else. So you're really hiring
the firm, and we're going to
make sure we take care of you.
And I feel like that could be
actually a much like intuitively
as I, as I said, as I was
listening to him like that's a
really good formula.
Yeah, yeah. So I think there's a
lot of possibility there. But I
think we have to overcome that.
Two things. One, we have to
overcome this idea that the
person is coming to hire me.
Right, just because your name is
on the door, and it's the
shingle, they're coming to hire
your law firm. And this is one
of the things when I'm working
with my clients. I'm always
getting them to separate. This
is you and this is your
business, the way we start out
when we hang our shingle,
because we're everything, we're
the chief cook and bottle
washer, you know, we think of we
are our business because we're
it right. But as we start to
grow, we need to rethink how how
our sales are made. Even if
you're still the one doing the
consultations, which a lot of
lawyers are they they've got to
start using different language
and use the terms of we you'll
be assigned to, you know, we
have a team that will be working
on your case. And so that we're
getting out of this idea that
you are hiring me as an
individual. And I think that's
one of the most challenging
things I want to talk a little
bit about. I know that you have
kind of a framework with sales,
because I know that when I
started doing sales, and then
getting sales, training and
things, one of the things that
was a you know, a lot of people
think it's mindset, and there is
a lot of mindset work, obviously
in sales, like moving away from
this idea that I'm, if I'm
selling you I'm trying to
manipulate or trick you versus
this idea of, I'm just offering
a solution to your problem, and
you have the right to choose it
or not to choose it. So that's a
completely different mindset.
I'm just sitting here going,
here's one option, and I think
it's the best option for you or
I wouldn't be offering it to
you, right? But there's the
mindset but one of the things I
found two that really helped me
a lot is also language, certain
phrases and language and
structure to a conversation. I
think we underestimate.
Oftentimes how important that
language is, especially for like
you've been in sales for so
long. That a lot of the way you
say things just as natural to
you and you probably don't think
Think about it. Just like
lawyers, we underestimate how
much we know after practicing
for 1020 years. And so we're
saying we're like looking over,
you're going you don't
understand this, I don't
understand what's wrong with
you, I understand this, right?
So tell us kind of your
framework for, for having good
sales conversations that yield
resort results and sort of your
approach in teaching it.
Our approach, we call the open
for business framework, right?
So being open for business is
more than being available to do
a transaction, like we're open
from eight to six. It's really,
it's more than that. It's a,
it's about your mindset. And
it's about what you do to be in
consistent motion, so that
you're always there when you
know when it's appropriate to do
business. And I really think
there's three pieces of this
framework that make you
successful, certainly in
business development, but I
could make the case for in
anything that you want to be
good at these three elements are
important. And they are mindset,
what you think, mechanics, what
you say, motion, what you do.
And most of the time, people
really want to start with
mechanics of selling, right? The
nuts and bolts, what do I say to
close a deal? What do I say, to
start a conversation? What do I
say about how I do what I do? Or
or anything like that? And I
think and that's where we talk
about the structure, the
structure of the sales process,
there's certain things, you
know, it would be inappropriate
to be like, Hi, how are you? How
much money do you have? Right?
It's, there's an order to things
right? You don't just jump in
with a question. Hi, nice to
meet you. Are you the decision
maker? Like don't do that? So
first, you want to you want to
set some expectations, you want
to qualify or disqualify them?
Do they have a pain that you are
an appropriate solution for? Do
they have? Are they willing and
able to make an investment not
just have money, but also have
time and effort that's
appropriate for the way that you
typically serve your clients?
And are, you know, who are they
in the decision making process?
Do they use advisors? Do they
have a committee? Is there
somebody else? Right? So all
what is their decision making
process? So there's a lot of
qualifiers, we want to ask good
questions about those
qualifiers. And then we have the
opportunity, maybe it's
appropriate, maybe it's already
happened to present our
solutions, present a proposal
package a contract, and then and
then now we're off to the races.
But even then, at that point,
now you're talking there's
opportunities to expand the the
client relationship, you know,
we work together in this domain,
do you have issues in this other
area of law? Do you know other
people who would appreciate the
way that we work the way you
know how our firm works with
clients the kinds of experiences
you have, so there's growing
business afterwards, which you
made a comment earlier, not to
train associates in sales, I do
think there is some level, maybe
they don't need to be trained in
every aspect of the sales
process. But certainly
questioning skills, setting
expectation expectations, asking
for referrals and introductions,
there are certain pieces of the
puzzle I think would be
valuable, especially if
associates are being groomed for
future partnership, while you
have to bring in new clients to
the firm to make partner. And
it's going to be helpful for
them to learn how to do that,
without always being at the
mercy of outsourcing it to
someone else. But I do think
that when you focus on the
mechanics of selling, and you
feel grounded in your sales,
language, it, it puts you more
in motion, you're more likely to
do more of those activities,
because you feel confident. So
you're, you're it's naturally
helping in that piece of the
puzzle. And the more you do, the
more confidence you have, the
more you you learn, the more you
begin to trust yourself. And
that shifts your mindset. So if
you had any negative thoughts or
ideas or beliefs about what was
possible, you can you can
naturally shift that and
increase the the opportunities
just because you've worked on
the language and you're feeling
more confident. So I think
that's a good place to start.
Right. Right. And do you think
there's, I do think there's it
is, the mindset is critical,
because if you feel like you're
doing something to someone and
something instead of something
for someone, you're going to
struggle with this. And so this
and so some of that is the
confidence in your ability to
provide what it is that they
need. And also I think a lot of
particularly I've seen this with
women, law firm owners, this
sort of you No not knowing how
to talk about themselves without
it seeming unseemly, like you're
bragging or whatever, and, and
how, you know, someone once told
me like, it's your job to be
visible and to go out and let
people know that you're
available and you're there was a
solution for their problem. And
that can be hard in this day and
age with a lot of people just
don't want to be personally
visible, right. And there are a
couple of things that you said,
one, I just want to touch on the
associate thing. So people have
an understanding of my, my
philosophy behind that the
reason why is I don't think it
should be the burden of an
associate to bring in business
for the firm, I think it should
be the partners responsibility
to bring in business for the
firm. And so that's a philosophy
that I have, and that's probably
another whole other episode. But
the thing that I want to make
sure that we touch on before we
need to wrap up is one of the
things you said was money, the M
word money, and that is the
piece where a lot of times, you
know, will be great, right up
until the point when somebody
says, Well, how much is it? And
how much is this going to cost
me? Or? And then that's where
they start going, what law
school did you graduate from,
and they start sort of being
more, you know, if they're, if
they're shell shocked about our
price, that's when they start
raising objections and things
like that. How, what's a good
way for us to enter into the
piece of the conversation where
we tell them how much something
is, and, you know, sort of next
steps or what they get for that,
or just whatever sort of thought
that somebody has, and they're
sitting there, because I have
this. When somebody's sitting
across the table from you,
wanting to hire you as a lawyer,
I almost think that no matter
what you say, they're going to
say, it's expensive, because
legal services, even even if
you're not charging nearly what
you should be a reference
represents a chunk of money. And
something that people really
probably don't want to be
spending money on. It's not
like, like I say, it's like,
it's not like buying the new car
that you can brag a trip. It's
like buying the tires. If you
can't go look at my tires are
beautiful. And they're white
walls, I got beautiful they are
right. You're like I just had to
spend money on tires. And so
that's I think people view legal
services, a lot of time I had to
hire a lawyer, and it's costing
me all this money that I don't
want to spend on that. So how is
how can we as attorneys, or
salespeople for attorneys combat
that sort of perception? Or what
do we do in that case?
Well, first of all, any number
that you say is going to be too
much money, unless they've had
an opportunity to think for
themselves, the cost involved,
either financially or
emotionally or otherwise? For
them, so you could say your fees
are $10 an hour? And if I don't,
if my problem only cost me $1,
it's too much, right. But if I'm
trying to think back to the
times that I've hired attorneys,
and you know, there was there
was the blank check case,
because I was like, take him
down, let's go. Yeah, that was a
very emotional decision cost me
a lot of money. But I was happy
to pay that one. You know, I
feel like it's the rule is, you
really don't want to be talking
about cost, until you understand
how much it costs them to have
that issue in place. You know,
so maybe it's, first of all, I
think it's good to have some,
maybe third party stories or
analogies. You know, before you
have that money conversation,
it's, you know, you could you
could share the tire story with
a prospective client, like, I
we're at that point where it
probably makes sense for us to
talk about, you know, an
investment in a case like this.
And obviously, I can't give you
an exact figure, because who
knows what's going to happen in
this, right? Like, you want an
or maybe you work on a retainer,
and it's a certain amount every
month, there's many different
iterations of this. But, you
know, of course, nobody has a,
you know, this is like buying
the tires. I mean, you you can
use that whole analogy in a
sales conversation, and just
say, you know, when you think
about hiring an attorney, or
when you've hired attorneys in
the past, you know, what, what
was comfortable for you, you can
ask questions to just kind of
get a sense of it. I sometimes
like to use metaphors. So you
know, there's the there's the
there's the Cadillac, I don't
know, is Cadillac, still a good
car? There's the Lamborghini
attorney, there's the Honda. And
there's Uber, you know, like,
which had Aghori? Would you?
Really? Did you? Do you imagine
you'd be in and some people are
gonna be like, No, if I don't
have a Lamborghini level
attorney, then I don't want to
play, right? Like, they're about
prestige and ego and, you know,
they they want it would be, they
might not hire you, if you're
too inexpensive. You think
you're doing something to help
someone by keeping your rates
lower, but they feel like
they're getting more value when
they are paying a higher rate.
So who knows? That's part of the
qualification process and
understanding, I like to ask
people questions about when
you've hired outside consultants
in the past, what were some of
the things that you look for in
that relationship? And then I
listen, because now I'm learning
what's more important to them.
And in addition to, you know,
the cost, I'm certainly not
going to, I mean, I know my
pricing, I'm not going to gouge
somebody just because they said
Lamborghini, if I'm a Honda,
right, I just, I want to
understand where they're coming
from. So I think yeah, that's,
it's always going to be more
expensive, unless they connect
it with something that's
personally important to them.
Right? So the conversation with
them, sort of planting those
seeds throughout the
conversation of the the urgency,
the value to them? Because let's
say let's use the example of a
divorce. The divorce is somebody
who's, you know, how long have
you been married? How long has
had the troubles been going on?
What's causing you to take
action? Now? Why is that
important to you? What is it you
want out of this? Well, I want
to make sure that I have my
kids, you know, that he doesn't
take my kids for me, or
something of that nature, right?
To take the house for me or
whatever. So you get some sense.
So then you are establishing for
them and you're letting them say
that being that it is why this
is important for them, as you
know, is so you're sort of
drawing the picture of is it
worth it, right? To make those
because they have to see that
investment. You know, in it, I
know, I've had that reverse
conversation with clients
before, back when I was running
my practice, I had a divorce
case, and somebody was, you
know, he was really upset, you
know, he really wanted, you
know, he was hurt. And he wanted
everything. And I and I talked
with him, I said, Listen, we can
go after this. But she's
offering the house, we got her
retirement account. But if you
by the time you pay me to take
this through trial, you're
better off just just stop where
you are, and take what you got,
right. So so sometimes you can
paint a picture for somebody in
terms of investment, about what
it is that they're wanting, and
what the the compare, you know,
the comparable investment to
that. One of the things that a
mentor told me once is, after
you say the price, after you say
the fee, or your structure the
fee, or however it is you want
to do it, whether that's a flat
fee, or we're taking retainer
billing against it, is just to
shut your mouth and sit because
you have plenty of time to
process, what things cost. And
you you have these conversations
all day every day. But to the
person sitting in front of you,
if they've never hired an
attorney before, or they haven't
hired attorney for something so
complex or costly, maybe
something less expensive, they
hired an attorney for they need
a moment to process it, and just
absorb it, right. Because
sometimes it's just the the
shock of you know, just a thing,
period. Right? We know how you
we know that if we go to buy
insurance, and then the
insurance agent quotes your
rate, and then you're like, the
odds are the shock of that.
Right? And there's that we need
to process them and make you
know, look at everything right.
So I think that is great advice.
I'm sure you've probably heard
the same thing and said the same
thing to people like don't get
in and start unraveling
everything.
Yeah, well, I mean, first of
all, if you if you immediately
what what I what I've seen
people do is they immediately
you know, you know this is the
price but we can negotiate or
but we can we can get creative
or you know, but we can sharpen
our pencil. Well basically what
you just told them is you can't
trust that what I initially say
because then I'm going to I'm
going to modify it. And also I
just tried to gouge you and then
I just gonna like felt a little
bad. So like Whatever trust
you've built up, just gone in
that moment. So I like that
advice, you know, say the fee.
And if that, you know, if you
are comfortable in it, and you
know, you bring that level of
value, there's no reason you
should feel like backpedaling or
negotiating, it's, you know, the
confidence in your feet is, you
know, I'm, remember when I raise
my fees, the first time ever, in
my career, I can remember back
in the day, and I literally had
to say, in my mirror, like all
the cliche things like, you
know, you are worth every penny
you charge and more. And, you
know, I and I regularly tell my
clients like, as long as the
value you get exceeds the
investment you make, we should
keep working together. And the
moment that dynamic changes, we
should not be working together
anymore. It's as simple as that.
So I'm very comfortable in my
rates, and I'm very comfortable
in my clients feeling
comfortable with my rates,
because I know they're gonna,
you know, they're not getting
the value. We're not working
together anymore. So that's how
I operate. But I also I do
think, you know, say your feet
be quiet, I like the the idea of
let it land. But here's the one
thing I would add to that.
Sometimes, the prospective
clients go to is going to be all
I need to think it over I need
to sleep on it, I don't think
people need quite as much time,
as they asked for. So before
they can say something like I
need to sleep on it. If you feel
like they need a little moment
to process, you can say you can
say the fee, take that pause.
And if they, you know, if they
say okay, here we go. Great,
you're off to the races. If they
say I just need a little bit of
time to think about it, I would
jump in and say you know what, I
totally appreciate that. I've
arranged for you to have the
conference room for you know, as
long as you need. I actually I'm
going to I'm going to go finish
up some things down the hall.
And I thought maybe you might
appreciate thinking about it
here that way, if you did have a
question, I'm right there, I'm
down, I'm available, the rest of
the firm is available to you to
take take the time you need.
Some most people I would imagine
have never been put in that
situation. They're like, Oh, now
some people are going to some
people are just because you've
laid it out. They're gonna be
like, okay, like that. All
right. I guess I'll think about
it now. And then other people
are gonna go, No, I'm gonna go
home, I'm gonna sleep on it,
they were going to do that
anyway, fine. Let them let them
do their process. But sometimes
they don't have a process. And
if we invite them into ours,
they might just go along for the
ride.
I love that. I've never heard
that idea, Brian, it's great.
Now a lot of us are conducting
meetings on zoom right now with
prospective clients. So what do
we do in that case? Say, Well,
I'll tell you what, I'm gonna go
a step away and get coffee and
you think about it, maybe write
down some questions. And I'll be
back in just a few minutes. And
I'll go over any questions that
you have that you need to think
about. Right? So something where
they have to think about just
creating maps, but I love that
like showing them, there's
another way to think about it or
to process something. As you and
I've talked about this before,
and oftentimes, when people say
I'm going to think about it, we
know that we're the only ones
who are going to be thinking
about it, they're not really
going to think about it. So I do
think for your own peace of
mind. It is better to to hear
that as a no. And just put a
say, Well, you know, I'm gonna
let that go, right. Because I
know when I first started doing
that, when I first started, you
know, in my law practice, when I
would, you know, I'd be sitting
there going, Oh, they're gonna
call me back or to come back or
whatever. And they didn't. And
it caused me a lot of grief. And
so since then I've learned how
to just go well, you know, that
I always I started looking a
little bit like the universe is
protecting me from something I
don't know. That's the way that
I sort of deal with it. Because
I have had people say they need
to think about it. And then
later, I see something on social
media, or they had some thing in
their life that has blown up
their life. And I go, Oh, thank
goodness, they were a client of
mine, because that hasn't
happened. And so the universe is
protecting me. So I have a
little bit of a philosophy that
sort of let let and also that
just is like, everybody gets a
choice and a decision. And I
know I've had situations where I
talk to people. And after I
thought about it, I realized it
wasn't the right thing for me to
do in a moment. And that had I
done it, if not would not have
been good, right? And so
sometimes that is the case with
people. And we just need to let
them go and not take it
personally. Go to the Four
Agreements, read The Four
Agreements and go read that over
again. Do not take this
personally do not take this
personally. This is hard to do
that you mentioned this. Well, I
think one way to do that too, is
remember barring that, we are
not our services, we are not our
business. Just go back to that
you it, even though you're the
one having the conversation,
you're selling services, you are
the one way meeting provider for
the services. Initially, maybe
means you're still so low, but
set separating that out. And
we're talking about the value of
our services, when we raise our
fees, we're raising the fee on
the value of our services, not
on our personal value. And if we
can separate that in our minds
and say, my value, my worth is
not question not questionable.
It is I am worthy, just for the
fact that I'm here alive on this
planet. And I have something to
contribute, right. So our word
is separate from services. And
that I think that for me, helped
me sort of separate out, when I
started thinking, this is what
my services are worth. And if
people buy business services, or
or even take it a step further,
this is the birth of my
business, the services my
business provides, even if I'm a
provider, in that separate that
out for me, and I don't take it
as personally and people say,
you know, this isn't a good fit
for me right now. Right?
Yeah. Oh, can I piggyback on one
thing that you said? Because I
think that was, it was brilliant
to, you know, hear that Think it
over as a No, when you do that,
you might as well try something
a little, like a little bit
more. I don't know, I'll use the
word assertive, not aggressive,
but assertive, like, like I
said, you know, why did you take
a mouse moment, I'll be back
soon. Like, if that doesn't feel
comfortable to you, then don't
try that with a, you know, a
really big top price, you know,
prospective client, try that
with somebody that you think is
not going to be a good match,
you know, when you think
somebody's not really a good
match for you go for all of the
sales, mechanics of selling,
that you can throw all those
tough questions in there, you
know, take it to the next level,
because they're just practice.
They're just price,
what have you got to lose at
that point, if you already know
that this person can say no to
you. So you could you could then
start going into other, you
know, sorts of more challenging
questions. I know, there's this
one person that I studied years
ago. And what she does is she
starts asking them to tell her
why they would be a good why she
should take them on as a client.
And I thought that was a that's
a brilliant sort of move,
because then you're, you're
flipping out with people, and it
causes them to think about that
this is really well, because
really what you're wanting is a
relationship here if you're
wanting a transactional sort of
business. But I think as I just
did a podcast episode on this,
in fact, about, if you want long
term relationships, where people
are referring you or coming back
to you, then you really need to
focus on the actual
relationship. Is this a person I
want to have a relationship with
a business professional
relationship, obviously, but is
this somebody that might, you
know, I want to help and they
want. And so I think you take
your cues from that, in terms of
what you're wanting to get in
relationship. We could probably
talk about our our I, we've
already gone over time, our
capture over time. I love
discussing this, because it's so
fascinating to me sort of what
you're really dealing with sort
of human psyche and how we make
decisions about what we do and
what we don't do. And so I find
it fascinating. I thank you so
much for being here. I always
love our conversations. Tell us
how people can find out more
about your training and what you
do. I know you'd offer some
different things. So where can
they go to connect with you and
find out about it?
The best place would certainly
be my website. So that's merit
con.com M er I T khn. If you put
merit con.com forward slash
podcast, you'll get to a page
that has has a form to fill out,
you can get a download a little
bit more learn about the open
for business framework. We also
have on that page, what we call
our select sales SWOT on
steroids, which is a really
great free tool for you to be
able to, you know, identify that
area in your business where you
can, you know, where there's
already a strength, but where
you have the biggest opportunity
for improvement, and we don't do
a boiler plate, you know, quick
answer, we do a very thoughtful
100% customized feedback on
that. So we'll do a short little
video saying, Here's what we
learned about your report. And
if you're open to talking with
us after that great, but you'll
always find the let's talk
button on the page. So book time
on my schedule, if I could be of
any help.
Excellent. Thank you so much for
for being here. I really enjoyed
our conversation as usual. And
I'll be talking to you soon.
Thanks. Thanks.
