Lawyer On Her Own Terms
Hi, welcome to the wealthy woman
lawyer podcast. I'm your host,
Frederick. And I am here today
with Kaylee Jack Ma. I say that
right? You did. Great. Thank you
who is the founder of the
lifestyle law firm. And I'm
super excited to talk with her
because what Kaylee's done, is
really very special. And I know
a lot of you will benefit from
hearing about it. She wanted to
create a law firm on her own
terms, because her primary focus
right now this time in her life,
is to be the mom of her two
kids. And but she also wanted to
have a successful business that
provided a good healthy income
for her family. And she has done
that. And now she mentors, other
lawyers, as well as running a
successful IP business, IP law
firm. And being a mom to her
kids primarily. She now mentors,
other attorneys. So I'm super
excited to have you here.
Kaylee. Welcome.
Thank you so much for having me,
Divina.
Great, great. Alright, so why
don't we start out by just
telling us I'd like to go way
back to your your first idea of
being a lawyer where that came
from? I know, some attorneys
just know from a very early age
that that's what they want to
do. And then others of us kind
of grow into that path. And it
comes to us by in other ways,
how about you what did what
inspired you to be an attorney,
something you always knew you
wanted to do?
Yeah, that's a great place to
start. Because it didn't just
inform my choice to become a
lawyer, but even the business
that I have today. So I was
raised by a lawyer, mom. But she
did things in a slightly
different order than I did. So
my mom went to law school. She
started when I was in preschool.
And then she started working
when I was in elementary school.
So I grew up with a lawyer, mom,
but I also had the experience of
when I was a baby. And when I
was little, having my mom at
home with me. And so when I
looked at my own childhood, and
then also, you know, the example
of my mom, I think I did know,
from an early age that I wanted
to be a lawyer, and people would
tell me, you know, you, you
would be a really good lawyer.
And then I also felt like, it
was something that you can apply
the law to any passion you have.
So if you're passionate about
saving the whales, you can go be
an environmental lawyer, if you
are, if you love business, you
can work in IP or business law
contracts. So you can really
apply it to a lot of different
interests. And that's at least
what I thought when I was
starting out. And then I found
that actually, what happens is
you you work in whatever job you
get, um, but just going back to
that experience of growing up,
and having my mom at home with
me, when I was little to me,
that is what I wanted motherhood
to look like, for me. So even
selfishly, I wanted that
experience. So I wanted the
experience of, you know, being
able to go to the library in the
morning on a Tuesday, and just
having that, having that
concentrated time with them. So
but as you know, as many people
do, I didn't necessarily say,
really have this grand scheme of
how my life was gonna go. So I
went to law school and started
practicing, before I had a
child. And then when I did have
my daughter, I thought, wow,
what am I going to do? Did I by
choosing to go this route by
choosing to become an attorney?
Did I opt out of this vision of
motherhood that I wanted, so
that was quite quite a long
journey. To bring it back a bit
though. Before I went to law
school, I was actually I studied
for the LSAT and I took the LSAT
in China. My husband, then
boyfriend and I were living
there. And so I would go to
Chinese class in the morning and
it was a very international
community. I think I was one of
two students from the US and all
of my other classmates were from
Pakistan and Korea and Senegal
and Nigeria. And so I would go
to trainees class and then I
would go study for the LSAT at
this little French bakery in
Changchun, China. It's up in
this province of China that
borders North Korea and Russia.
It was absolutely freezing
there. But a very interesting
experience. And then in the
evening, I would go teach
English to students that range
from my youngest students were
three all the way to 17 seniors
in high school, so a very
eclectic mix there. So while I
was doing that, I was studying
for the LSAT and I then took the
LSAT in Shanghai that was
another unique experience doing
that. And then I came back to
the United States to go to law
school. I came back to New
Jersey where I'm from originally
and left my then fiancee back in
China. So I tell that story
because It really began the
foundation of doing things
differently. When it came to my
legal career. I, you know, even
my experience of taking the LSAT
was unusual. And I carry that
through all throughout law
school. So my first year, around
the time that everyone is
starting to look at internships,
you know, January, February
applying for internships for the
summer, really, my focus was,
how can I get back to Asia, I
want to spend time with my
fiance, who's still living over
there. I also wasn't done
adventuring. I wasn't satisfied
with the idea that I started law
school. So now I'm going down
this path, and I'm going to be
doing my summer internships in
New Jersey in New York, and
then, you know, inevitably get a
job there. And my life is
decided for me now. So I started
looking at internships in Asia
to get closer to him and also to
do something that was a little
more fun. And one night, I'm
applying to all these
internships in China law firms
there, some NGOs, and then also
different US agencies at the US
Embassy there. And somehow One
thing led to another, and I got
derailed from my train
applications and ended up
applying to an internship at the
US Embassy in Bangkok and
Thailand, which checked the box
of adventure, but not
necessarily getting back to my
fiancee. But so um, I must have
applied for a lot of internships
that evening, because the next
day, I wake up and I have an
email from the US Patent and
Trademark offices IP attache to
Southeast Asia. And I hadn't, I
had no memory of applying to
that I didn't think I hadn't
even heard that there was an IP
LJ. And what had happened was I
had applied to the US Commercial
Service, which is an agency
under Department of Commerce
that helps us companies export
their goods across the world.
And so I had applied to that.
And they forwarded my resume to
their IP attache, who asked if I
was available to talk with him
that day, and I said, of course,
sure. So I jumped on a call. And
he told me, they didn't have an
internship program, but he was
forwarded my resume. And he's
been advocating for one and what
I like to come to Bangkok that
summer, and be his first intern
actually be the first intern for
the USPTO, his IP attache
program. So I said, of course,
and that experience was going to
a lot of UN conferences and WIPO
conferences and helping him
prepare these presentations on
USIP law. So that was that was a
great experience. And then that
led to that really, I think, you
know, made a light bulb go off
that, oh, a legal career can
look so different. I had no idea
that his job existed. And it
also set the bar very high for
my summer internships. So I kind
of went through this process
every January and February
thinking, Okay, is it am I back
to New Jersey now? Like is, Am I
done adventuring? Again? How I
think?
Yes, yes, somehow I, I managed
to keep that going all also
rules of law school. So I went
back to an international IP firm
in Bangkok and interned there.
And finally, when I graduated, I
had an internship during the
school year at the at Homeland
Security in New York. So I was
offered a job through that
internship. And when I
graduated, I became a federal
prosecutor for Department of
Homeland Security. So fast
forward, I still didn't have any
children, I moved to the
Attorney General's Office. And
then I found myself pregnant
with my first child. And I knew
that just for me, I didn't want
the routine of dropping her off
at daycare in the morning, you
know, and picking her up at six,
six or seven in the evening. And
even though I was a government
lawyer, and that's kind of
hailed as, you know, the most
flexible job in the legal
industry, it wasn't, it wasn't
good enough for me. That's not
what I wanted for myself. So
when I left my job at the Ag
office, I intended to spend at
least her first year at home
with her. And at that time, I
didn't know that what I was
doing what you're doing was
possible. I didn't know it was
an option. So I really thought I
had a limited amount of time
with her before I would either
go back to the Ag office or
figure something out. And I just
assumed that whenever, you know,
subsequent children came that I
wouldn't have the luxury of
having the same experience with
them as I had with her. And it
was actually what changed this
for me and really was another
light bulb moment was the
platform Upwork, which I'm sure
you're familiar with. I was
researching, I just got on
Google. And I was like, What can
I do? That's part time from home
that's flexible. And so I'm
googling part time lawyer jobs,
you know, work from home we're
about and there really was
nothing. I mean, that in 2017,
which, you know, isn't the Stone
Age, but it was a long time ago,
you're talking about
changed everything. I mean, our
whole culture has changed in the
last few years of the pandemic,
so, yeah, 2017 was it it was pre
pandemic. So it was a whole
different world back then, you
know, this time, you know, say,
No, you Googled lawyer jobs, and
then what happened?
Yeah, and I didn't find
anything, I didn't find anything
that was really meeting the
bill. And somehow, I found my
way over to Upwork. And I just
started writing legal blogs for
other law firms. And this
wasn't, you know, this wasn't a
career plan, it was just
something I was doing that, you
know, my baby wasn't even
crawling. And it was something
that I could do to earn some
extra money and, you know, keep
my brain active. And I thought
it was wonderful. But then it
introduced me to this whole
world of online work, and I
wasn't really, you know, dialed
into the online business world,
or, you know, all these service
based businesses that were
popping up online. But that was
the introduction. And so I
rather than looking at what
other lawyers were doing,
because most of the lawyers that
I knew were miserable, I started
looking at what other service
providers were doing, and asking
the question, can I apply that
to the law? So one of the first
examples that sticks out in my
mind is there was a couple, a
husband and wife that were both
CPAs. And they spent like, six
months of the year in Bali, and
they you know, they would file
tax returns, and this was their
life. And to me, I thought, wow,
I really chose the wrong career,
I should have become a CPA. And
it was an evolution.
Every bear is going, No, no, you
should not have become a CPA. I
can
imagine my friends who are who I
work with that are CPAs, you
know, we realize that we are the
boring, the boring what you need
in your business professionals
in this world. But, um, so yeah,
and I, but it started, it made
me ask those questions of, Is
this possible? What would it
look like? And as you know, at
that time, there were people who
had virtual law firms, but I
think in some ways, it was
people felt like they needed to
keep it secret, you know, I
would try to search for people
who were practicing law in this
model, which by that I mean,
more flexible, more part time
remote, virtual, maybe you don't
have a brick and mortar, you
have systems of automation. And
there weren't a lot of people
that were, you know, holding it
out as an option presenting it.
This is what I do. Rachel
Rodgers, you know, if you're
familiar with her, she had some
articles about that. Um, and you
know, there were other people,
but it was really, I would come
to someone's website, and I
would kind of just discern that
I thought they were a virtual
firm, and look at what they were
doing on social media and look
at their website and things like
that. But it wasn't talked about
as much. And there certainly
weren't as many virtual law
firms. So I, you know, as I
mentioned, I had that background
in IP. And around that time, I
met a trademark attorney in the
city I was living in in St.
Louis. And he also was not
necessarily holding out that he
had a virtual law firm, I just
kind of was guessing that he did
based on on my stalking
currently of his business. And I
asked him to meet me for coffee.
And, and, you know, yeah, he did
have a virtual firm, and he
didn't have a brick and mortar,
and he worked from home. And he
did have, you know, a Regis
mailing address or something
like that. And then it was my
third lightbulb moment of this
is I have a background in this.
I didn't have a background in
practicing, of course, it was an
internship was, which is also
always different. But this was
something that I could do
virtually, that was
transactional. And you can take
clients nationwide because
you're as long as someone is
registering their trademark with
the USPTO you can represent them
so a lot of lightbulb moments
there and then I got to the
business of starting to set up
my firm and starting to you
know, set up all those different
pieces. And at that time there
was there wasn't a coach or a
program or anything that I found
that was inviting me, you know,
to hold my hand and walk down
this road of me rode with me I
was really figuring it out as I
went along. And what I did,
again, was look at the model of
other service providers, not
necessarily other lawyers, if
you're familiar with Dave
Ramsey, the radio show host, you
know, he has yet he has a quote
something to the effect of, you
know, don't take financial
advice from your broke friends,
just like you wouldn't take, you
know, relationship advice from
your single miserable friends or
whatever it is. And I realized,
well, I shouldn't be looking at
the example of the traditional
law firm and the way maybe that
they have their website set up,
or maybe the way they do their
marketing. If I do that, I'm
going to get similar results,
you're going to get similar
results to the people that you
that you look up to that you
model your business. And so I
was looking at service
providers, like coaches, even
website designers, graphic
designers, online business
managers, all these different
service providers that were
doing business online on the, in
the online world, leveraging
social media to market, and then
really started putting the
pieces together by looking at
the results of people whose
lives you know, I wanted, I
wanted the same kind of
flexibility that they had to be
at home with my kids to travel,
and to be my own boss, and
really designed something that
was different than what I saw
elsewhere in the legal industry.
Well, it's interesting, as I'm
listening to tell this story,
what's so interesting is that
how much we've similar
experience in that I had the
brick and mortar law firm. And
but then it wasn't working for
me. And I had several things
happen that just said, this is
not working for me. Even though
I don't have children. It wasn't
for the purpose of you know, I
didn't leave it for the purpose
of being home with kids. I just
had some other things that
really caused me to look at it
more closely and say this
lifestyle is not for me. And I
started my own virtual firm in
2013. And had it from 2013. No,
I'm sorry, 2011, and had it from
2011 to 2017. And, but, but
virtual was very different than
virtual was phone, email. That
was how you ran a virtual firm,
you didn't run it, you know, we
didn't have the tools. People
weren't comfortable video
conferencing, although there,
there were those tools out
there. They were really more for
corporate world and environment,
people in work environments,
doing legal services that way
was really unique and new. And
in fact, I had somebody leave me
a review on one of the attorneys
sites, I won't mean which one
but one of the attorney
directories and I got a four
star instead of a five star,
because he said he was great,
everything's wonderful, except
he never met me in person. And
he was the only person that did
that everybody else gave five
star reviews. But it was so new
that people weren't sure how to
feel about it. Right? Because
you know, and we didn't have the
face to face model like we have
today. So I could see, you know,
it was the same kind of for me,
I started looking around at
other I got, I got coaches, I
hire coaches. And that's how I
got exposed to the coaching
world. And sort of saw this
model out there. Here's a
different sort of model out
there that can work. And that's
where he started seeing. I think
a lot of people nowadays having
virtual firms, it's, you know,
everybody goes, Oh, well, of
course, of course, it's gonna
set it up. But it really wasn't
that long ago, where that just
wasn't a thing. And anytime you
talked about I have a virtual
firm, you would have naysayers,
you know, say, Well, that'll
never work at an attorney said
to me, that was work. Your
clients don't like that. Because
he wanted me to rent various
sorts of space in his office
building. And I was like, Well,
I'm gonna give it a try. So it's
very interesting that you
started out that way. Now.
You're and I think IP, I love
your whole China's story and
Bangkok, how wonderful that you
have those opportunities. And I
just think to myself, What
courage it took to sort of just,
you know, yeah, I'm gonna go to
a whole other country and work
there. And live there. You know,
how it's an adventure, but it's
also got to be a little bit
intimidating. You know, doing
that. What, how, how did you did
you have experienced that those
feelings or?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I
absolutely. And, you know, I
think it really prepared me for
a lot of the challenges of
entrepreneurship because you're
flexing that muscle of doing
something that's scary and
walking into the unknown. So the
first time that I will I had
been abroad before, but really
went far, far away from home and
lived abroad was when I was in
college. I did a semester in
China. And so that was that was
before the period of time I was
discussing earlier. Yeah. Yeah.
And it was, you know, the first
time I got on a plane and went
to China, I felt like I was
going to another planet. And it
wasn't as much of another planet
once once I landed, as I
anticipated, but absolutely, in
my first summer in, in Thailand,
when I got to the law firm, in
subsequent summers, they put us
up in a really nice service
department. But at the US
Embassy, you were responsible
for your own housing, and they
didn't even provide suggestions.
So I was I didn't, I didn't know
anyone in Thailand. And I had
like some ideas of service
departments that might work. And
when I say service, there are
all kinds of service departments
in Thailand. So I'm, and I kind
of had some addresses and ideas
together. But when I got on the
plane, I just had a hotel room
booked. And then my plan for
that first weekend was just to
go around the city looking at
these blocks, sorry, looking at
these apartments, by myself. And
so that was, yeah, that was
scary.
Yeah, I imagine, because, you
know, we hear you, you move
away, and you do that, at least
you everybody speaks the same
language. And, you know,
there's, there are some cultural
differences, too, that you have
to be aware of when you do
something like that. So I
imagine it was just fascinating
time for your life and your
education. So let's move forward
to your IP firm, and talk about
that. So you decided to kind of
go back to the, the IP, because
you had spent time as an intern,
helping to teach it and all of
that. What, so what did you do
to launch your law firm
business, your virtual law firm?
What are some of the things that
you did to to make it a virtual
firm? Yeah,
you know, if I could go back, I
would implement so many of the
things that I've learned along
the years early on, but in the
beginning, you know, I set up,
you know, the legal and
financial end of my business,
and got my malpractice insurance
and the bank accounts and
whatnot. And then I built, I
built my own website, which,
which I've since evolved from,
but I just started a website on
Wix. And if you know nothing
about website development, and
you have absolutely no budget to
invest in someone else,
designing your website, which
would be like the first second
and third choice would be to
have somebody else who knows
what they're doing, do it, I
would say that Wix is the most
user friendly platform that I've
seen. On the other end, it does
definitely result in a very DIY
feel, which is not ideal, but
really, the beginnings of my
firm were very bootstrapped. It
was very DIY. So there, I was,
with my Wix website, and I
started joining entrepreneur
groups in Facebook groups,
connecting with people on
Instagram, reaching out to
people's podcasts and things
like that. And then slowly, you
know, building relationships and
getting my name out there. And
one thing that I did, which has
really, I think, made my
business so much more enjoyable
for me, but I joined the kind of
entrepreneur groups that I would
want to be a member of. And what
happened was, my clients tend to
be a lot of women, they tend to
be, you know, solopreneurs, or
small teams, that they're
building their business. And
usually, when I get on a
discovery call with someone I
end, you know, with a client and
a friend, it's, it's a enjoyable
conversation, we have a lot in
common. And they also like to do
business in a similar way to how
I like to do business. So I
don't have a phone number
published on my website, I do
have a phone number in my
signature line, but I don't have
a phone answering service. And a
lot of the entrepreneurs that I
work with, they don't either,
you know, it's, it's a, you can
contact me by my inquiry form,
send me an email, and there's no
expectation of I'm going to be
able to reach you at a random
time. You know, between nine to
five, we'll set up an
appointment and we'll speak you
know, when we plan to speak. So
that's really been wonderful
because, like I said, the
clients that I work with, I
really enjoy those
relationships. And they are
usually building businesses that
are really interesting to me
that I can also relate to and I
get to be a small part of
that. Yeah. And do you have? Do
you find that most of your
clients are mothers of young
children as well? Or do you have
kind of a mix? It's a
mix. Yeah, it's a mix. Um, there
are there are mothers and and
non mothers, but I would say,
probably 95% of my clients are
women. Of course I don't
discriminate, that just tends to
be who you know who I'm
connected with, through
referrals through the groups
that I'm participating in. And
so, so yeah, but you know,
there's just so much as women,
whether you have children or
not, we juggle so many balls.
And I think that there's just a
unique difficulties that come
with being a female business
owner, and just the way that you
see the world and relate to the
world, that it really, you know,
lens for a deeper relationship
with your clients than if I was,
you know, that if I was at some
big law firm doing trademark
work with whatever business came
along.
You have, what do you find to be
sort of the biggest challenge
for you in sort of balancing
this? Stay at stay at home, mom,
you know, being being present
with your kids, and work? And do
you find, I'm assuming you work
out of your house? Do you find
any sort of challenges with
regard to overlapping, you know,
obligations and things like
that, like, you know, kids have
certain nap times and certain
eating times they have routines,
you want to keep them in? Do you
ever sort of run up against that
in terms of servicing your
clients?
Yeah, yes. And no, I would say,
because of the model I've built.
And that's why it's so important
to me, to not have, you know, a
phone number that people can
reach at anytime soon, because I
need to know that when I'm here,
when I'm in front of my
computer, when I had an
appointment to speak with
someone, you know, then I'm
speaking to them. And also in my
practice area, there generally
aren't emergencies. So there
aren't 24 hour emergencies, you
know, so if I get an email on a
Monday evening, and my next work
day is Wednesday morning, they I
had to have an auto reply, but
they can wait until Wednesday
morning, generally,
I'm always telling my clients
that, that, you know, this idea,
I mean, how many true
emergencies are there and, and
even, even in, even in a
practice areas where there are
urgent needs, or, you know,
clients think, or an emergency
or whatever, generally, you
still have to deal with a court
and filing things, you know,
it's not like a true emergency,
like EMTs are having to deal
with, you know, and so
oftentimes, we put that pressure
on ourselves to be uber
responsive. And email is a big
isn't, you know, people getting
up first thing in the morning
they do is check their emails.
And I'm like, the minute you do
that, you're letting other
people hijack your priorities.
So doing that, I imagine you
have some really strong time
blocking mechanisms for your for
yourself.
I do and I just color coded it
recently, which has made it very
exciting to look at. But yes,
there are a couple of things I
do. So one thing, I don't know,
if you're familiar with the app
boxer, it's kind of a walkie
talkie app. So I use boxer a lot
with my assistant, so she'll
help me, you know, triage and
organize emails. And she'll send
me a message because for
whatever reason, I've learned
that the the time and mental
energy that it would take me to
read an email, and then, you
know, email her back, can you
respond saying this coordinate,
it's way more streamlined for
her to send me a message and
say, Hey, Susie needs X, Y, and
Z. And for me to say, Can you
please respond to Susie that,
you know, A, B, and C, and that
has been really liberating. It's
a small thing, but it's just
really helped me so much because
what would happen is, like you
said, the overlap so maybe it's
a period of time where I didn't
block out work time but I'm with
my kids. And we are you know,
I'm picking them up from
something and I'm in the car and
I look at my email and I see
something but I can't respond to
it, you know, texting on my
phone right now it's not the
right time. So I'll start and
come back to it and it just adds
to the mental load of here's
another thing on my to do list.
Here's another thing on my to do
list. And having her help just
in that small way has been so
liberating, because that's a way
where my let my personal life
and business life do inevitably
cross over. but it makes it, it
makes the overlap a lot easier.
And way more aligned with what
I'm doing in that moment to be
able to quickly communicate with
her like that. Another thing is
to be perfectly honest, you
know, when your whatever age
your kids or whatever is going
on with your life, I think it's
important to recognize the
season you're in, and the season
you're in does not necessarily
dictate the future of your
business or what is going to be
happening next year. And the
beauty of a flexible law firm is
that it can flex to the changing
needs of your life. And that's
something again, this was not a
grand scheme that I came up
with, when I when I went on
maternity leave. It's something
that I've learned over time that
you know, the way my daughter
needed me as a baby was
different than when she started
going to a mommy's morning out
some hours per week. And then
that changed when she was in
preschool three days a week. So
this year, I had another baby,
my son who just turned one in
January. And originally, I
thought that when he turned
three months old, I would get a
part time nanny to come over to
the house and be with him while
I worked from my home office.
But then that, that three month
mark came, and I just was
completely unmotivated to get in
any I just I didn't want a
nanny, and it was, you know,
kind of getting back to
designing your life. And I felt
like I'm supposed to get a
nanny, you know, like, now I'm a
business owner. And even if it's
part time, I at least need a
part time nanny. That's what I
see all these other women doing
who maybe they're lawyers, but
maybe they're just another kind
of service provider with a six
figure business. And, and I
just, it just didn't feel right.
And so then he turned four
months, five months, the months
went by, I still don't have a
nanny. And so it's still William
and I five days a week while my
husband's at work, and my
daughter, that helps a
tremendous amount because she's
for going on 16 And she's a
chatty Cathy. So she needs to go
to school for sure. And William
so far. I mean, what when that
season will change. He's just
barely starting to work. To
work. Sorry, walk, I will look
forward to the day early. Yeah,
we're putting them to work as
soon as they learn how to read
for sure. Um, so he's just just
starting to learn how to walk
and he sleeps a lot. You'll take
a three and a half hour nap from
like, usually from like, 1030
until almost two he's asleep. So
it's fine, right?
Like smile. That's like salad.
Yes. Yeah, I think a couple
things. One is, I want to make
sure we go back and tell people
what Voxer is because I know
what it is. You know what it is
we need to tell people. But the
other thing is, we were saying?
Oh, gosh, it's sucked up. You
tell me what boxer as well. I
tried to remember what is the
second culture? Yeah,
so Voxer is a walkie talkie app.
And you can download it on your
phone. And basically, it's just
you can hold down a button and
send a voice message or voice
memo to someone. And they can
hear it in live time. So instead
of you know leaving a voice
message like you would on an
answering machine, and then they
listen to it when they're done.
They could if they were also on
their app, listen to it while
you're speaking. Or they can
listen to it later. And then you
can also text them. So it's just
you can do similar things
depending on what type of phone
service you have in your regular
text messages. It's just nice to
have the conversations really
organized. And at least on my
iPhone, those Voice Memos will
disappear unless you choose to
keep it and these voice or memo
box or voice memos just live
there. So it's a really nice
tool.
Yeah, I had a I had somebody
brands who helped me do some
branding a few years ago and she
used boxer and we use that as
our tool communication. And I am
not a listen to voice recording
kind of person. I am a a texter.
And so I, I would text but she
would leave voice messages for
me. What was so cool about it is
is real time comm stuff, you
know, and we didn't have to, you
know, we weren't on the same
team. So we didn't have slack or
whatever. We had two different
businesses, but it was a way for
us to communicate and it does
give you that immediacy, you
know, which is so helpful when
you're trying to work on a
project together to get it where
you want it to go. The second
part, what I was gonna say is, I
think you hit on something
that's so critical that I want
to stay with for a minute, and
that is you really were very
clear on what you wanted. And I
think so many times, what gets
us derailed, whatever it is
trying to create is when we
start comparing ourselves to
others. They're doing this, I
need to do this. I mean, I don't
know how many times people have
said to me, should I have a
podcast? Because I have a
podcast? They say, Should I have
a podcast? Well, it depends.
It's my lawyer answer. It
depends, right? We don't have to
do things just because other
people are doing them, we're not
missing out. Our ship is not
gonna, we're not gonna miss her
ship, when it comes in. When
we're there, the ship's gonna,
he felt like the ship will be
there for us. And there's many
different ways that we can get
where you want to go. So being
very clear on what it is that
you want for you, in your case,
you were thinking, Well, you
know, like, I have any any, and
then you're like, No, suddenly
what I want, and being honest
with yourself about that and
making that decision. You didn't
lack anything as a result of
that is you? I mean, you. You,
you're living allowance,
actually.
Yeah, it's the thing that I'm
most proud of this year, you
know, I didn't I it happened all
accidentally, really well,
intentionally, but I just, you
know, never pulled the gun. And
it was really when he was
approaching a year mark that I
reflect reflected back. I
haven't done this because I
don't want to and, you know,
just kind of owning that
decision. Yeah, was was the
thing that I was most proud of
my business, despite that grew
not tremendously, but it was my
best year in business, as I
believe, you know, every year of
business should be better than
the previous. And it was,
despite, you know, being despite
giving birth at the end of last
January, having a newborn and
having him home here the whole
time. My husband does. He gets
home, he goes to work very
early, so he'll get home at
around 430. So that helps. And
then I typically work on
Saturday mornings to early
Saturday afternoon. And again,
in the especially when you're
setting out to create a freedom
lifestyle business. There can be
this pressure, like, Oh, I'm not
going to work weekends, because
I'm supposed to not even work
Fridays. But I take Tuesday and
Thursday off, you know, and my
Monday, Wednesday, Friday, for
me, is really a four and a half
hour work workday. So I do work
Saturday mornings, but because I
love the business I've built to
me that is like, Okay, I'm
leaving, and I'm going to a
coffee shop to get some work
done. See you all later. And I
enjoy joy. Oh, yeah,
I think you and you use an
interesting term I want to talk
about, I often ask my clients,
when we start working together,
do you want to create a business
that is a million dollar, multi
million dollar business, that
you have a team and it's running
itself? And you have freedom
that comes over time? As you
build that up? And more and more
people? Or do you want a
lifestyle business where you
have flexibility now, money now.
But there may be limits on how
much money you can bring in? If
you there's only so much we can
do, right? But that may be okay.
If you're if you're living a
life you love, and you're making
sufficient income. And you're
getting to go to Costco on
Tuesday, you know, when else is
date, right? That's the thing
that I remember when I first
married my husband, and he was
an entrepreneur. And so he
really inspired me to live this
kind of life. And he used to
just be out sort of running
errands during the middle of
Workday when I was at work. And
I was like, what? Costco and I
remember wanting to like go run
errands with him. And then I ran
errands with multiple times. I'm
like, Okay, well, that was
great. I'm done. I'm like, I was
thrilling. I'm done with that
now. And so you go run those
moments.
And you probably have I mean,
you just describe that moment. I
think everyone who is an
employee working full time, you
know, outside of the home, and
they have a random day off for
whatever reason. And you know,
and then they find themselves,
you know, grocery shopping at
1pm. We're like getting a break
at a coffee shop. And I don't
know if it's just me, I feel
like everyone probably has those
thoughts of what if this was my
life all the time? Like, what if
I lived in this world with these
people that do errands at 1pm?
We don't want everybody to catch
on to our secret, but I think a
lot more and more people have.
And of course, the pandemic has
changed with so many people
working from home now and also,
so many things, delivery
services have been available to
us. So our whole way of thinking
about how we can move through
the world has changed from you
know, even just five years ago,
right? What people were thinking
were their options. So what What
kind of if you were to share
perhaps one of the biggest
lessons you've learned? As
you've kind of gone through this
journey and figuring things out
on your own? What would you say?
What would you say to somebody
else who kind of wants to follow
a similar path and thinking
about starting their family,
they want to still keep their
law firm business. But do it in
a way that blends well with that
other priority? What would you
give? What advice would you give
them? I think twofold.
First, that there doesn't need
to be such a finality to the
decisions that you make. You are
mentioning, you know, do you
want to build a freedom
lifestyle kind of law firm? Or
do you want to really scale a
business and build a seven
figure business, you in your
lifetime, you don't need to
choose between those, if right
now in the season of life you're
in, it fits your desires in your
family to build that freedom,
lifestyle business, you will be
perfectly situated to pivot and
grow that business, that seven
figure business when you're
ready, when it fits your life
and your desires. And so I think
the other another key is getting
quiet, if you will, going, you
know, getting out of the noise
in your life, wherever that is
for you, by a lake, in the
mountains, in your car, or
wherever. And trying to just as
much as you can imagine a
completely blank white piece of
paper that you can design this
future of your own on, because
we're so inundated with the
shoulds in the must and this is
what it looks like to be a
lawyer, that there's so much
work involved before you even
start dreaming, you have to
start scrubbing that away, like
get out the Mr. Clean Eraser and
start scrubbing away all of the,
you know, these preconceived
notions of what it means what it
must mean to be a lawyer and
what your career has to look
like. And the work of you know,
clearing that out. So you have a
blank slate that you can really
start imagining if I could make
up my own rules, and I was doing
this just the way that I wanted
to maybe in the short term, but
also, you know, looking into the
long term, what would that look
like for me, and each step of
the way, both in the planning
process of that early dreaming
stage, but also throughout your
business journey, questioning
your assumptions, because one
thing I've really learned is,
you need to continually revisit
that vision. Because business
changes the tools that we use
change the methods of marketing
that work change. Yah, yah, yah,
yah, we change, not just your
family's demands, like not just
the kids, the partner, whatever,
but what you want will change
you might see someone doing
something that you're so
inspired by, and you feel like
yourself. Yeah, yeah. And you
haven't, you haven't put your so
you, you just keep yourself in a
box, you don't have to stay in
that box, for you may have
started out with an idea that
you thought was going to be
great. And it's just a reckoning
of, you know, realizing that it
doesn't fit anymore. So as a
perfect example of that, it was
in the beginning or the end of
2019. So yeah, ended 2019 I
started and so I didn't want to,
to bore them to death. So I
would interject other fun
business topics. And I really
enjoyed it. I enjoyed making the
podcast, I enjoyed having
podcast guests. But, um, it was
probably right after the Yeah,
it was right after the lockdown
began. And I was pregnant, and I
was having like severe morning
sickness, I already had the
other things that I was
juggling. And I just had to, you
know, make a decision that this
isn't the right time to do this.
It's not the right time to do
this. And honestly, I don't even
know if it was the most
effective marketing strategy for
me. At that time. It was much
more, you know, it was much more
strategic to go on the podcast
of business coaches, or someone
else who already had an
audience, rather than building
this audience. And, again, it
just wasn't aligned with what I
needed in my life at that time.
So also, you know, recognizing
the things that aren't working
and being open to new ideas and
reinventing yourself and
pivoting. You make such a great
point it, it really is. This
goes back to what you want and
sometimes and you're you can try
something too, it's okay, you
can try something and then
decide, I need to hold off on
this right now or I need to
change it. And, and that is the
beauty of owning your own
business is you get to make the
decisions. And it's okay to try
things and make a decision that
it's not for you, or you try
something and it doesn't work
the way you think it's going to
to pick something else. That's,
that's the beauty of this kind
of business. So I love that you
shared that you made such a
great point with that, um, you
have an event coming up in March
for those women or women who
women attorneys who, maybe
considering starting their own
business, maybe they're working
for somebody else, for a while,
they kind of got a full twinkle
in their eye or dream in the
back of their mind. Tell us
about that event, what you're
going to be doing? Yes, so
that event is a three day free
training. It's called lawyer on
your own terms. And it's
happening from March 15 through
17th. So it's going to take
place, it's going to be live
streamed into our Facebook group
at 7pm. Central, that's 8pm.
Eastern, and it's really getting
back to clearing clearing the
slate, creating that white
canvas for you to dream on. So
taking out our Mr. Mr. Clean
erasers, and really wiping away
the notions of what your legal
career has to look like an
exercise is to begin dreaming of
what would it look like for you?
Not for me, not for you know
anybody else? But what would it
look like for you, if your legal
career fit around the other
desires of your life and kind of
the foundation of this is when
you're thinking about your work
schedule instead of you know,
here's what I have to work and
then fit your life around that?
No, we have a clear work week
here. And the first things that
you schedule in are those
personal, non negotiables, the
most important things to you in
your life, those non negotiables
they go on the schedule first.
And now how do we build a
practice that, you know that
utilizes your skills and your
talents and you're passionate
about and creates a thriving
income for your family that is
built around those priorities,
because that's the foundation of
it. So it'll be an hour training
that streamed and then attendees
are invited to hop on a zoom
call for free private coaching
group. And that's the part that
I love the most is meeting
people hearing about their
stories, and then kind of be
hiving at the end of each day.
what that could look like for
each person, because it's not
just the benefit of chatting
this out with me, but all the
other women who are in this
place of dreaming.
Right, right. So you will give
us a link for that. We're gonna
share that in the show notes. So
people want to check that out.
They can, they'll also be a link
to your website and your other
social media, we have those
links for you. So let's go in
the show notes as well. And
anything else that you want to
share today before we wrap up,
cuz I know we need to end in a
minute. Any any last thoughts
you want to leave people with?
Yeah, you know, I this is a
little bit cliched, but, you
know, sometimes you're going to
be scared when you start a new
thing. And it's really
exercising those muscles. You
know, starting with a baby step
after baby step. And the more
you do it, the more you're going
to exercise that muscle and you
are going to be comfortable with
it. And you're gonna be
comfortable getting into a space
where you are really walking
down your own path when everyone
else is walking the other way.
Right. I love that advice. I
think that is it. The thing
about cliches is they often
they're based in truth, which is
why they're so popular and we
love them so much so but I
appreciate you sharing that
you're absolutely on point.
Kelly, thanks so much for being
here. I really enjoyed our
conversation today. You're not
probably we'll have many more
conversations over time and I
really appreciate you sharing
because I know a lot of people
in our audience are really going
to love what you share with us
today. Thank you so much.
